VIA Rail

[Northern Light]

Welland was part of the Toronto-Hamilton-Buffalo service VIA inheritated from CP. It was a daily service operated with an RDC, leaving Toronto in the morning and returning from Buffalo in the evening:
View attachment 274617
Source: official VIA timetable (effective 1980-04-27)

In the late 1940s and early 1950s, there were 4-5 trains serving this route and carrying through coaches and/or sleepers to cities like Boston, New York City, Pittsburgh and Cleveland:

View attachment 274621
Source: official CP timetable (effective 1950-04-30)

However, these through services were withdrawn in 1961 (Cleveland), 1962 (Pittsburgh), 1964 (Boston) and finally in October 1970 (New York City), when the last remaining train (an overnight train with coaches and sleepers to NYC) was replaced by the same RDC daytime service (Toronto<=>Buffalo) which VIA inherited in 1977 and terminated in September 1980:
View attachment 274623
Source: official CP timetable (effective 1970-04-26)

View attachment 274624
Source: official CP timetable (effective 1970-10-25)

This left VIA with only the RDC service between Toronto and Niagara Falls, which operated three times daily. In April 1981, one of these three RDC runs was replaced by a new joint VIA-Amtrak train, the Maple Leaf, which restored a cross-border link into New York State and New York City after an interruption of half a year or a full decade, respectively:

View attachment 274622
Source: official VIA timetable (effective 1981-04-26)

***

As for rail service to Port Colborne, even though that city was routinely listed in CPs and VIAs Toronto-Welland-Buffalo schedules, this only referred to a bus connection.

However, CN operated a mixed train 6 times a week between Fort Erie, Port Colborne, Caledonia, Brantford and Stratford until April 1960:
View attachment 274626
Source: official CN timetable (effective 1950-04-30)

Additionally, there seemes to have been an hourly "Eletric Car" (presumably: street car) service between Port Colborne, Welland and Thorold until 1954/55:
View attachment 274625
Source: official CN timetable (effective 1954-04-25)

Feel free to browse through my timetable archive (by clicking on any of the links above) and don't hesitate to ask any other timetable questions...

This has spurred a couple of questions in my mind, which perhaps you might have thoughts on:

1) Given the traffic that does occur between Buffalo and Toronto in a normal year; much of it Buffalo tourists visiting Toronto; but some people going the other way, as well.

I've often thought a Buffalo-Toronto rail shuttle service should work, especially weekends and holidays, Victoria Day - Labour Day, and in/around Christmas.

The Maple Leaf as a service suffers from its long schedule creating some reliability issues; but is also really targets a different market.

Do you think such a shuttle would make sense?

Ideally w/pre-clearance customs.

2) What do you think of using the Welland Corridor to access Niagara Falls, literally terminating at Fallsview, based on the current track end.

I realize upgrades would have to be made to that last stretch of track which is in abysmal shape.

But it strikes me that there is again a crowd to be serviced there; probably better by that route than the current one ending well away from the Niagara action.

 

[crs1026]

I'm curious about this, because even though your ticket proves that service via Welland continued until April 1981, the route seems to no longer appear already in the September 1980 schedule (I couldn't find it anywhere and "Welland" is not listed in the station index)...

There were delays getting the replacement service through Niagara Falls up and running, and getting regulatory approvals to end the old service. So the service ran as an "extra" (unscheduled) movement. The service did not appear in public or employee timetables in that period.
Here are a couple of shots - the train leaving Toronto carrying white flags, denoting an extra movement; and the melancholy notice posted in the window of the Fort Erie train station. Those notices of abandonment were a legal requirement that were posted on board and at stations - all too common in the 70's and early 80's

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

There were delays getting the replacement service through Niagara Falls up and running, and getting regulatory approvals to end the old service. So the service ran as an "extra" (unscheduled) movement. The service did not appear in public or employee timetables in that period.
Here are a couple of shots - the train leaving Toronto carrying white flags, denoting an extra movement; and the melancholy notice posted in the window of the Fort Erie train station. Those notices of abandonment were a legal requirement that were posted on board and at stations - all too common in the 70's and early 80's

- PaulView attachment 274634View attachment 274635

You know, Paul.....

You come across as a very vital force; and so we all naturally assume you're a middle-aged fella...............then you periodically post something from just after the dinosaurs died out and tell all of us you were actually there.

It creates a sort of cognitive dissonance.............

 

[crs1026]

You come across as a very vital force; and so we all naturally assume you're a middle-aged fella...............then you periodically post something from just after the dinosaurs died out and tell all of us you were actually there.

LOL.... I try not to do the math.

- Paul

 

[Bureaucromancer]

As far as Buffalo goes, I would argue pretty strongly that the best option is not some kind of direct service so much as all day two way GO to Niagara Falls and a separate Buffalo Niagara Falls DMU/DLRT service (ideally one of the lines should really cross the bridge, and I lean toward it being the American one terminating in Canada, but even a pedestrian bridge with some weather protection would work) which would also have very good potential for an extension to KBUF.

The map also include the North Campus extension NFTA is working on, but I rather suspect this is a project that will happen the moment the FTA actually gets an application given how good Buffalo's ridership numbers actually are.

 

[Urban Sky]

To me, this highlights the risk to VIA of staying at Union. If Metrolinx is unwilling to raise any of the platforms, it may be that they at least want to keep the option of increasing service frequency such that VIA can't operate as many trains as they would want. I know there are disadvantages to VIA moving away from Union, but owning their own station would give them the flexibility to have as many trains as they want without having to ask permission from Metrolinx. As VIA said in their Summary of the 2017-2021 Corporate Plan:

Where would you terminate intercity trains arriving from Montreal and Ottawa? Oshawa? Kennedy? North Toronto? As you quoted yourself, "Downtown to downtown service is key for intercity passenger rail success" and as someone who has participated in some of the discussions about the future of Union Station, I have no reason to doubt that all actors involved are serious in their commitment to act in the spirit of this imperative...

I should note that Ottawa no longer has a downtown station but instead has good transit from the station to downtown and a location that is easily accessed from the 417.

Indeed, once you close your rail station in the heart of a city's downtown and destroy the right-of-ways by replacing all tracks which led to it with roads and Highways, having your main station several kilometers further away from where it had been for more than a century might become an acceptable option...

 

[lenaitch]

As far as Buffalo goes, I would argue pretty strongly that the best option is not some kind of direct service so much as all day two way GO to Niagara Falls and a separate Buffalo Niagara Falls DMU/DLRT service (ideally one of the lines should really cross the bridge, and I lean toward it being the American one terminating in Canada, but even a pedestrian bridge with some weather protection would work) which would also have very good potential for an extension to KBUF.

View attachment 274900

The map also include the North Campus extension NFTA is working on, but I rather suspect this is a project that will happen the moment the FTA actually gets an application given how good Buffalo's ridership numbers actually are.

Nothing says an attractive way to travel than a 1000+ stroll.

 

[kEiThZ]

Where would you terminate intercity trains arriving from Montreal and Ottawa? Oshawa? Kennedy? North Toronto?

I think there's folks who advocate for the Summerhill Station. It would be workable, but far, far from optimal.

Also, since Ottawa doesn't have a station in the core, I think Ottawa rail fans assume the same model can work elsewhere.....

 

[Northern Light]

Also, since Ottawa doesn't have a station in the core, I think Ottawa rail fans assume the same model can work elsewhere.....

Then there are others of us who will argue its not working brilliantly in Ottawa now!

Can we rip out Nicholas Street and have the old station back please? (yah, I know.....)

 

[ARG1]

Then there are others of us who will argue its not working brilliantly in Ottawa now!

Can we rip out Nicholas Street and have the old station back please? (yah, I know.....)

Rip out Nicholas Street and demolish uOttawa? Interesting idea.

 

[crs1026]

Ottawa has worked OK, more by luck than design.... but it's not a model to be copied elsewhere.

Perhaps we will eventually see North Toronto become a relief depot, more for RER or commuters than for VIA. I can't imagine VIA giving up on the value of the downtown terminal, especially with it being the hub for RER and so close to the central business district.

The city that concerns me most is Montreal. Recently on VIA's moving map I watched the Chicoutimi/Senneterre train arrive, using the roundabout route across the top of the city and then through Taschereau Yard to the main line. 50 km/hr all the way from Anjou, and it was held northeast of the entry to Taschereau Yard, likely due to freight working the entrance to the yard. I'm not optimistic that sharing the tunnel will prove practical.

It also concerns me that VIA is said to have budgeted only $90ish Million for Montreal-Ottawa HFR - one would hope there is some capital set aside to improve the Dorval-Ballantyne-Cape zone. While zoned for speed, the track layout (frequent crossovers) and freight interference regularly causes very slow transit through this zone. A REM connection to downtown may be fine for the Quebec line, but the fast reliable Ottawa-Montreal timing we are hoping for probably depends as much on fixing the downtown entry as fixing any curves further west.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

Rip out Nicholas Street and demolish uOttawa? Interesting idea.

There's plenty of room to keep U-Ottawa.

The old ROW runs btw the football field and the Queensway and can hug that space til it crosses the latter.

Once parallel to the canal, it can take space from Col. By drive or Nicolas or in some spots the residual space btw them.

Of course, I don't actually expect any of that to happen, maybe ever; but at least for a very long time.

But it really is quite workable.

 

[sche]

There's plenty of room to keep U-Ottawa.

The old ROW runs btw the football field and the Queensway and can hug that space til it crosses the latter.

Once parallel to the canal, it can take space from Col. By drive or Nicolas or in some spots the residual space btw them.

Of course, I don't actually expect any of that to happen, maybe ever; but at least for a very long time.

But it really is quite workable.

Red is rail, Blue Colonel By Dr realignment to meet with Nicholas. Large section of Col By Dr is used for rail alignment.
Two tracks is 100% possible, only problem is space for the downtown station if the old station site were to be used.

Space is very tight where platforms would need to go, could probably only fit 2 tracks and a center platform without removing the path beside the Rideau canal or demolishing the Shaw Centre.

Or you could put the plaforms here and maybe fit 3-4 tracks + platforms, but they would be pretty short platforms

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Agreed that Montreal is the big threat at this stage.

I suspect that the only good answer at this point is to emphasize whatever northern station has an REM connection as the primary location for Montreal passengers with Central being, primarily, for transfers between services north and south of Montreal.

As for Ottawa, I really can't imagine a scenario in which a stub terminal that, at best, severely compromises Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal through service would be worth the operational negatives.

 

[micheal_can]

There's plenty of room to keep U-Ottawa.

The old ROW runs btw the football field and the Queensway and can hug that space til it crosses the latter.

Once parallel to the canal, it can take space from Col. By drive or Nicolas or in some spots the residual space btw them.

Of course, I don't actually expect any of that to happen, maybe ever; but at least for a very long time.

But it really is quite workable.

Why not just dig a tunnel? Montreal did that.