VIA Rail

[Bureaucromancer]

As far as Buffalo goes, I would argue pretty strongly that the best option is not some kind of direct service so much as all day two way GO to Niagara Falls and a separate Buffalo Niagara Falls DMU/DLRT service (ideally one of the lines should really cross the bridge, and I lean toward it being the American one terminating in Canada, but even a pedestrian bridge with some weather protection would work) which would also have very good potential for an extension to KBUF.

The map also include the North Campus extension NFTA is working on, but I rather suspect this is a project that will happen the moment the FTA actually gets an application given how good Buffalo's ridership numbers actually are.

 

[Urban Sky]

To me, this highlights the risk to VIA of staying at Union. If Metrolinx is unwilling to raise any of the platforms, it may be that they at least want to keep the option of increasing service frequency such that VIA can't operate as many trains as they would want. I know there are disadvantages to VIA moving away from Union, but owning their own station would give them the flexibility to have as many trains as they want without having to ask permission from Metrolinx. As VIA said in their Summary of the 2017-2021 Corporate Plan:

Where would you terminate intercity trains arriving from Montreal and Ottawa? Oshawa? Kennedy? North Toronto? As you quoted yourself, "Downtown to downtown service is key for intercity passenger rail success" and as someone who has participated in some of the discussions about the future of Union Station, I have no reason to doubt that all actors involved are serious in their commitment to act in the spirit of this imperative...

I should note that Ottawa no longer has a downtown station but instead has good transit from the station to downtown and a location that is easily accessed from the 417.

Indeed, once you close your rail station in the heart of a city's downtown and destroy the right-of-ways by replacing all tracks which led to it with roads and Highways, having your main station several kilometers further away from where it had been for more than a century might become an acceptable option...

 

[lenaitch]

As far as Buffalo goes, I would argue pretty strongly that the best option is not some kind of direct service so much as all day two way GO to Niagara Falls and a separate Buffalo Niagara Falls DMU/DLRT service (ideally one of the lines should really cross the bridge, and I lean toward it being the American one terminating in Canada, but even a pedestrian bridge with some weather protection would work) which would also have very good potential for an extension to KBUF.

View attachment 274900

The map also include the North Campus extension NFTA is working on, but I rather suspect this is a project that will happen the moment the FTA actually gets an application given how good Buffalo's ridership numbers actually are.

Nothing says an attractive way to travel than a 1000+ stroll.

 

[kEiThZ]

Where would you terminate intercity trains arriving from Montreal and Ottawa? Oshawa? Kennedy? North Toronto?

I think there's folks who advocate for the Summerhill Station. It would be workable, but far, far from optimal.

Also, since Ottawa doesn't have a station in the core, I think Ottawa rail fans assume the same model can work elsewhere.....

 

[Northern Light]

Also, since Ottawa doesn't have a station in the core, I think Ottawa rail fans assume the same model can work elsewhere.....

Then there are others of us who will argue its not working brilliantly in Ottawa now!

Can we rip out Nicholas Street and have the old station back please? (yah, I know.....)

 

[ARG1]

Then there are others of us who will argue its not working brilliantly in Ottawa now!

Can we rip out Nicholas Street and have the old station back please? (yah, I know.....)

Rip out Nicholas Street and demolish uOttawa? Interesting idea.

 

[crs1026]

Ottawa has worked OK, more by luck than design.... but it's not a model to be copied elsewhere.

Perhaps we will eventually see North Toronto become a relief depot, more for RER or commuters than for VIA. I can't imagine VIA giving up on the value of the downtown terminal, especially with it being the hub for RER and so close to the central business district.

The city that concerns me most is Montreal. Recently on VIA's moving map I watched the Chicoutimi/Senneterre train arrive, using the roundabout route across the top of the city and then through Taschereau Yard to the main line. 50 km/hr all the way from Anjou, and it was held northeast of the entry to Taschereau Yard, likely due to freight working the entrance to the yard. I'm not optimistic that sharing the tunnel will prove practical.

It also concerns me that VIA is said to have budgeted only $90ish Million for Montreal-Ottawa HFR - one would hope there is some capital set aside to improve the Dorval-Ballantyne-Cape zone. While zoned for speed, the track layout (frequent crossovers) and freight interference regularly causes very slow transit through this zone. A REM connection to downtown may be fine for the Quebec line, but the fast reliable Ottawa-Montreal timing we are hoping for probably depends as much on fixing the downtown entry as fixing any curves further west.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

Rip out Nicholas Street and demolish uOttawa? Interesting idea.

There's plenty of room to keep U-Ottawa.

The old ROW runs btw the football field and the Queensway and can hug that space til it crosses the latter.

Once parallel to the canal, it can take space from Col. By drive or Nicolas or in some spots the residual space btw them.

Of course, I don't actually expect any of that to happen, maybe ever; but at least for a very long time.

But it really is quite workable.

 

[sche]

There's plenty of room to keep U-Ottawa.

The old ROW runs btw the football field and the Queensway and can hug that space til it crosses the latter.

Once parallel to the canal, it can take space from Col. By drive or Nicolas or in some spots the residual space btw them.

Of course, I don't actually expect any of that to happen, maybe ever; but at least for a very long time.

But it really is quite workable.

Red is rail, Blue Colonel By Dr realignment to meet with Nicholas. Large section of Col By Dr is used for rail alignment.
Two tracks is 100% possible, only problem is space for the downtown station if the old station site were to be used.

Space is very tight where platforms would need to go, could probably only fit 2 tracks and a center platform without removing the path beside the Rideau canal or demolishing the Shaw Centre.

Or you could put the plaforms here and maybe fit 3-4 tracks + platforms, but they would be pretty short platforms

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Agreed that Montreal is the big threat at this stage.

I suspect that the only good answer at this point is to emphasize whatever northern station has an REM connection as the primary location for Montreal passengers with Central being, primarily, for transfers between services north and south of Montreal.

As for Ottawa, I really can't imagine a scenario in which a stub terminal that, at best, severely compromises Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal through service would be worth the operational negatives.

 

[micheal_can]

There's plenty of room to keep U-Ottawa.

The old ROW runs btw the football field and the Queensway and can hug that space til it crosses the latter.

Once parallel to the canal, it can take space from Col. By drive or Nicolas or in some spots the residual space btw them.

Of course, I don't actually expect any of that to happen, maybe ever; but at least for a very long time.

But it really is quite workable.

Why not just dig a tunnel? Montreal did that.

 

[roger1818]

Where would you terminate intercity trains arriving from Montreal and Ottawa? Oshawa? Kennedy? North Toronto?

While Oshawa is part of the GTA, it isn't "in" Toronto so it is obviously a hyperbole on your part. It also isn't on the HFR route.

Kennedy is a bit better, but it is still in Scarberia, and not near downtown.

If VIA was forced to leave Union, the old CPR North Toronto Station in Rosehill would be a decent alternative if VIA could buy it from the LCBO. It is only a couple hundred meter walk from Summerhill station for an easy transfer downtown and 8km from the 401.

Is it perfect? No, but far better than Kennedy or Oshawa.

As you quoted yourself, "Downtown to downtown service is key for intercity passenger rail success" and as someone who has participated in some of the discussions about the future of Union Station, I have no reason to doubt that all actors involved are serious in their commitment to act in the spirit of this imperative...

I am glad to hear that. When I brought it up in the past on the other forum we both contribute to, you refrained from commenting, which made me think that it was being kept as a possibility.

Indeed, once you close your rail station in the heart of a city's downtown and destroy the right-of-ways by replacing all tracks which led to it with roads and Highways, having your main station several kilometers further away from where it had been for more than a century might become an acceptable option...

Ya, the Gréber Plan had some very serious shortcomings.

I am curious though, if HFR gets built and someone were to find a way to reopen Ottawa's old Union Station, do you think that HFR trains be detoured to it? The current trains that terminate in Ottawa, sure, but my guess is VIA would treat it like Brussels Central Station and not use it for intercity rail and treat the current station like Bruxelles-Midi.

 

[Northern Light]

Why not just dig a tunnel? Montreal did that.

Keeping in mind this venturing towards fantasy as it is.......

A tunnel simply isn't necessary here.

There's ample room up top.

Also, the Canal here has not one but 2 roads along it at points making it less enjoyable recreationally.

A train certainly wouldn't make that worse (if it came in lieu of the current road space).

I would argue it would likely make it better w/less traffic, less noise, less pollution; subject to ensuring it didn't cut off pedestrian access to the canal.

 

[roger1818]

Keeping in mind this venturing towards fantasy as it is.......

A tunnel simply isn't necessary here.

There's ample room up top.

Also, the Canal here has not one but 2 roads along it at points making it less enjoyable recreationally.

A train certainly wouldn't make that worse (if it came in lieu of the current road space).

I would argue it would likely make it better w/less traffic, less noise, less pollution; subject to ensuring it didn't cut off pedestrian access to the canal.

I agree this is certainly venturing towards fantasy, but the issue is, as sche said, the Shaw Centre. If you want the tracks to fan out to multiple tracks and platforms, you need more space than is available, especially if you want to reuse Union Station. It would take an engineering study to confirm that it is even possible, I would think the best option would be to have the platforms under the station. You could run into drainage issues from the canal though.

Regardless there aren't any easy solutions and it wouldn't happen for several decades, if ever. Ottawa would need to grow large enough to benefit from commuter rail and right now the population density plummets once you get past Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans and many of the tracks that could have been used are gone.

 

[Northern Light]

Red is rail, Blue Colonel By Dr realignment to meet with Nicholas. Large section of Col By Dr is used for rail alignment.
Two tracks is 100% possible, only problem is space for the downtown station if the old station site were to be used.
View attachment 275066 View attachment 275065
Space is very tight where platforms would need to go, could probably only fit 2 tracks and a center platform without removing the path beside the Rideau canal or demolishing the Shaw Centre.
View attachment 275068
Or you could put the plaforms here and maybe fit 3-4 tracks + platforms, but they would be pretty short platforms
View attachment 275069

Assuming removing the Shaw Centre is not on the table, there's probably only room 2 tracks and 2 platforms.

Though, I'm not sure how much more Ottawa would routinely need these days.

Without the Shaw Ctr there, the bridge has space underneath for a couple of extra tracks there as well.

So you probably comfortably put back 4 tracks with wide platforms or 6 with narrow..