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VIA Rail

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https://books.google.ca/books?id=ryaoDQAAQBAJ&pg=SA18-PA39&lpg=SA18-PA39&dq=tilting+trains+easier+on+track&source=bl&ots=XAOyj7VzOy&sig=3tKKeC5Wo1ERnGMajhfKrCatf9o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKiOiSsYPZAhUm5IMKHfe2A64Q6AEIWTAG#v=onepage&q=tilting trains easier on track&f=false

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https://books.google.ca/books?id=Hvojd95lZIkC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=tilt+train+easier+on+track&source=bl&ots=bWZaipQSUI&sig=tskEzDiLMTX1IO8uZYxldms3rQo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN_KaVuIPZAhWH1IMKHSGjDOUQ6AEITzAH#v=onepage&q=tilt train easier on track&f=false

And neither of those talk about the effect of the tilting train on the track. Because a tilting train doesn't change its interaction with the track. It still exerts the same forces.

I know how a tilting train works. I know how they are able to take curves at faster speeds. I understand how the physics is applied to a body inside of the car. Yes, in general and in most cases, a trip with a tilting train will be faster than one without. But what you guys don't realize is that there are lots and lots of cases out there - even along the existing corridors such as the Kingston Sub - where even a tilting train can not run any faster than a non-tilting one due to things like track geometry. That's why there's got to be a disclaimer of "in general" - it's not an absolute.

Let's go back to that Slate article for a second. They quote Alstom as saying that the Avelia can go up to 30% faster than the Acela around curves. That seems quite excessive, but it is possible in very, very certain situations. Part of it is the additional tilt that the Avelia is able to achieve over the Acela (7% vs. 4%). That may get them another 10 or 15mph. But because the Avelia is also supposed to be something like 20% lighter than the Acela, it should exert less force and therefore do less damage to the track structure as well. And because of this, all things being equal, its speed around the curve may be increased even more than simply because of the additional tilt.

Tilting is helpful, but it is not a magic bullet by any means.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

Alstom claims tilting train can solve HS2’s speed conundrum
French TGV-maker says its design can run fast on high-speed line and tilt on corners on existing routes

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Robert Wright and Gill Plimmer

SEPTEMBER 20, 2016
Alstom claims tilting train can solve HS2’s speed conundrum French TGV-maker says its design can run fast on high-speed line and tilt on corners on existing routes Alstom said trains based on those it's making for the US Amtrak network could be ideal

SEPTEMBER 20, 2016 The builder of France’s TGV trains is hoping to persuade officials planning the UK’s high-speed HS2 line that it can resolve one of their biggest conundrums: that on some of the lines new trains may run more slowly than existing rolling stock. Alstom, one of the world’s biggest train makers, has been telling engineers it could offer a train capable of running very fast on the dedicated high-speed line that could also tilt on corners on existing routes. Without tilting capability any new train would likely be slower over some sections of the existing network, such as the route from Preston to Glasgow, where Alstom’s tilting Pendolinos operate. However, HS2’s planners have long doubted that a train would be able to fulfil both functions. The discussions have been taking place at a time when HS2, a government-owned company, is considering a change to its rolling-stock strategy. It had looked set to place an initial order for trains capable of running only on the new high-speed line and for another group designed to run on the new line and on the UK’s existing “classic” network. It now looks set to order only trains compatible with the existing network at first, before ordering high-speed-only trains when more of the high-speed network is open. Transport ministers will decide shortly which strategy to pursue. Henrik Anderberg, Alstom’s director for HS2, said trains based on those it is making for the north-east corridor of the US’s Amtrak network could be ideal for the “classic-compatible” order because they would be capable of 300kph and also designed to tilt. “The [Amtrak] tilting technology is the same tilting technology that we have on our Pendolinos but we have refined that,” Mr Anderberg said. The technology was constantly evolving, he added, and any train offered to HS2 might have a higher top speed than 300kph.
[...]
https://www.ft.com/content/77ba6e10-7c36-11e6-b837-eb4b4333ee43

The Physics of High-Speed Trains
By Patrick Di Justo

July 25, 2013

[...]
But banking the tracks isn’t a cure-all—a passenger train can tilt only so far before people fall out of their seats. So the minimum curve radius comes into play. Imagine that a curved portion of track is actually running along the outer edge of a large circle. How big must that circle be to insure that a train’s centrifugal force can be managed with only a reasonable amount of banking?

It’s relatively easy to calculate these forces and the ways to counteract them, so it’s relatively easy to set a safe maximum speed for a certain kind of track. Yes, badly maintained tracks, trains, or signals can sometimes contribute to a derailment. Historically, however, many of the world’s worst train accidents on sharp curves—the 1918 Malbone Street wreck in the New York City subway system, which killed at least ninety-three people (figures vary), or the Metro derailment in Valencia, Spain, in 2006, which killed forty-three—were simply caused by the trains going too fast.

That seems to be the case in the Santiago de Compostela accident: tracks rated for fifty miles per hour need almost no banking and can have a curve radius of fifteen hundred feet, while a train traveling at a hundred and twenty miles per hour needs a track with significant banking, and a minimum curve radius of more than a mile and a half. The laws of physics all but insured that in this particular battle between gravity and centrifugal force, the latter would win.

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-physics-of-high-speed-trains

Not brought into this article is superelevation (cant). Given enough velocity, you can go almost vertical with the tracks. Think of motorcyle velodromes. The problem comes with lower speed trains having to share the same track. This is even a concern for rail and flange wear on regular tracks. The cant angle is optimized for weight, speed and centre-of-gravity. It is compromised for the rest.

In the event, the cant for a line like the WCML in the UK, and for the Peterborough route if built, is well within acceptable design latitudes for both *higher speed tilting passenger* and premium express freight.

Addendum:
Excellent examination here:
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[...]

 Why Tilting Trains Necessary  Often train operating companies face a decision for building a high speed railway transport system.  In order to eliminate the problem with corners we have to either build high speed railway tracks or by introducing tilting mechanisms.  When we are choosing the 1st option we have to construct tracks on the corners with higher radius of curvature.  In passive tilting on a curve, under the influence of centrifugal force, the lower part of the car body swings outwards.  It should be noted that passive tilt has a negative impact on safety due to the lateral shift of centre of gravity of the car body.  The active tilt relies on active technology controlled by a controller and executed by an actuator.  Tilt as such has normally not an impact on safety on actively tilted train.
[...]
https://www.irjet.net/archives/V4/i12/IRJET-V4I1296.pdf
 

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^ What point are you trying to prove with the above? There's no context or summary. It's just a bunch of pieces from various articles.
 
Firstly, there is no need for profanities, stay classy my friend.

Profanity is warranted given the frustration on this file.

To set the facts straight, there have been tangible steps forward.

Hardly.

The studies were funded,

$3M for a study, over three years, is chump change. If you believe they conducted in-depth study on HFR with just that much, I have some great investment opportunities you might be interested in....

it looks like fleet is going to be replaced according to Transport Minister Marc Garneau.

Fleet renewal is only tangentially related to HFR, in that we hope they don't get something incompatible with HFR. And this was bound to happen, either under this government or the next one. Their fleet is running on fumes. And fleet renewal would have become an existential crisis for VIA in a few more years.

The Prime Minister says he supports HFR in principle

"In principle" means squat. They've been supporting improvements to inter-city rail "in principle" for as long as I can remember. Meanwhile service has been getting worse.

This Prime Minster has made firmer commitments that he completely disregarded. And they were on far more important issues. Why would you think that an "in principle" commitment on a rail project that does not impact a majority of Canadians, even matters to him?

large projects won't go forward until the Infrastructure Bank is running

And whose fault is it that the bank took so long to get up and running?

It is now running

Nominally. Getting a board up and running doesn't mean much. Can you point me to the website where a municipality or government agency can send their proposal for funding?

HFR is one of the few large-scale projects in Canada that is almost ready for funding.

With only $3M worth of study, the only thing it is ready for is more study. They haven't even announced funding for a more in-depth study. Let alone the EA that follows and design and devleopment.

Understanding Canadian political process and the subtleties of the political game are key to understanding the HFR funding issue, and I urge patience.

I am done being patient with a string of governments that talk and don't deliver. Like I said, for me personally, whether this government actually does something serious on HFR is the sole deciding factor for me at the next election.
 
Coaches tilt but locomotives generally don't. (It has always been thus, from Turbo days).
That's no longer true. Far from it as a matter fact. I'm not aware of any present-day tilting trainsets (and note, "trainsets" are what VIA is stating for their Fleet Renewal, let alone for HFR) where the locos don't tilt along with them. In fact for many/most trainsets, the tilt is a product of parameters determined by the loco via track sensors in a full PTC configuration before they even enter the curve.
[...]
ETR 460 maintains a low axle load of 14.5t/axle that allows the train to run 35% faster on curves compared to conventional trains. Further advanced versions of ETR 460 are the ETR 470 built for Italo-Swiss company Cisalpino and the ETR 480 for Trenitalia.
[...]
Technology
The trains use Tiltronix technology, and feature hydraulic tilting bogies. The tilting rods installed in the bogies activate the tilting. The train’s wheelforces have been minimised by reducing suspended masses. The bodyshell sits centred with the use of active lateral air suspension system.

The latest Pendolino trains have tilting pantographs fixed on the roof of the cars. Whenever the train tilts, the carriage slides sideways due to an active counter-translation hydraulic system, which enables the pantograph to remain centred.
[...]
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/pendolino-train/

Some fail to realize that times have changed, and the tech has moved with it. It's not for nothing that the vast majority of speed improvements with modern trainsets on existing curvaceous track is down to state-of-the-art engineering.

"There are currently around 400 Pendolino trains operating in 11 countries across Europe"

Addendum:
Here's the TASS system explained, and there's inevitably improvements even in the last few years on this:
Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision System, abbreviated as TASS, is an overlay to train protection systems allowing the control the speeds of tilting trains. It is only installed on the West Coast Main Line (UK). Its trainborne part is fitted to British Rail Class 221 and British Rail Class 390.

History[edit]
The history of TASS is connected to the privatization program of the West Coast Main Line which was won by Virgin Trains in 1996. The modernisation plan unveiled by Virgin included ambitious targets to increase the line speed from 110 mph (177 km/h) to 140 mph (225 km/h). This would include the use of tilting trains on the existing tracks.

The tilting train tender was won by Alstom with their Pendolino technology. In the first batch 53 trains were ordered which were delivered between 2001 and 2004 to be introduced as British Rail Class 390. With just three years from the specification to the test trains in August 2000 the British class did not differ heavily from the other Pendolino systems.[1] They had been provided to areas with very different train protection systems before and there was a requirement to include features of the European Rail Traffic Management System at the time.

The system is based on Eurobalises to transmit an additional set of speed restrictions on top of the Automatic Warning System (AWS) or Train Protection & Warning System (TPWS). TASS allows a maximum of 25 mph (40 km/h) extra speed on sections with enough clearance for the tilting trains.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilt_Authorisation_and_Speed_Supervision

Googling shows this has been discussed at length prior in this string. Why such developments should come as a surprise to some is curious...
 
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robmausser said:
Curves can be mitigated somewhat by the right kind of tilting rolling stock.
Tilting rolling stock doesn't change the minimum curve radius for a particular stretch of track. If a piece of track is only rated for 40mph because of a lack of spiral easement or paired reverse curves or due to a vertical curve, the fact that the rolling stock tilts is never going to change that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
For those posters who need to be reminded of the context of some of the present posts.
 
GASP! Maybe you will have to actually read something and learn rather than be spoon fed the information.

I have actually been reading the posts here. That particular post by Steve didn't have any context in my view. Even one sentence would have helped. Hope that's taken as constructive feedback because that's the intent. It just appeared to me to be a lot of text from various articles. Thanks for sharing your view.
 
I will add too. If the bank isn't up and funding something big, and if the impossible happens and the Conservatives come bank in, the CIB will get chopped. Their delay on getting the bank up and running is deplorable.
 
I have actually been reading the posts here. That particular post by Steve didn't have any context in my view. Even one sentence would have helped. Hope that's taken as constructive feedback because that's the intent. It just appeared to me to be a lot of text from various articles. Thanks for sharing your view.
Yes, my apology, I omitted the "^".
 
Ah, interesting. I don't recall ever feeling it tilt. Of course the whole point was that you weren't supposed to, I suppose. But it was always speed restricted ... was it 90 mph back when VIA took over? I only recall travelling on regular CN stock before that, and didn't start riding frequently (about once a fortnight) until 1980. Given it's design operating speed was so much higher than that, perhaps the tilting wasn't active. Part of the reason you noticed the LRC tilting, as you'd be sitting there, going straight and fast and smooth (at least after they finished welding the Kingston sub), and suddenly for no apparent reason at all, the coach was tilting.

I like that French picture of the tiling train. Look how far the tracks are apart. If I recall, the reason that VIA "temporarily" locked the LRCs was if two trains passed on a curve, and one tilted the wrong way, that they might hit. Though after all these years, who knows how accurate my memory is.

I wonder how much of an option is tilting the track. Though I'd think it would do terrible things to the inside rail.
 
I was looking for a map of where the original rail alignment went. And never did find much.

But I was looking for something completely different (BTW, if anyone knows where 1960s/1970s Ontario maps with old Township road numbers are, please message me - they are surprisingly hard to find. I've no end of sources for 1800s and very early 1900s maps. But 1960s? 1970s? Good luck. I thought the old 1970s MTC series might have them - some of which were reproduced by AllMaps in the 1980s ... but the sheet I'm looking for must have disintegrated years ago.

Anyway, here's a part of a good Ontario map from 1902. Which amusingly has railways, canals, steamship lines, and lighthouses. But not one road! Probably not that useful on a provincial scale at that time! This is from the University of Western collection (which frustratingly seems to go no later than 1902. Some great old stuff though!

The map shows the railway line coming from Peterborough to Havelock (where it now ends) towards Madoc, though Tweed, Kaladar, and then onto Perth, etc.In particular Glen Tay is shown, which I believe is about to where it gets to being still in service.

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