VIA Rail

[kEiThZ]

Be patient. The Infrastructure Bank is just getting rolling, and HFR will be approved soon. They aren't struggling to find investors, its just investors prefer mega-projects, and they take time to go through approvals.

Also, didn't we establish earlier that VIA HFR doesn't need an EA? Could be wrong on that though.

They've been in power for 2.5 years now. They don't seem serious at all about making changes on inter-city transport. I was of the opinion that they might at least do something with VIA HFR. It's infrastructure, has real economic benefits, reduces greenhouse gas emissions from aviation and autos. Instead, there's no evidence they've even finished all the feasibility studies that would be required.

They say it needs more study. What the fuck have they been doing for the last 2.5 years?

If I wanted a government that would do the bare minimum on VIA, I would've voted for the Conservatives. This government only cares about new social programs and photo ops for new municipal water treatments. They don't actually care about delivering infrastructure of any strategic and national relevance at all.

The only thing that will have me supporting Trudeau is tangible progress on this by the next election. Not more study. I mean an announcement of funding and investors. Anything less and I might just rage donate the maximum amount to Scheer's campaign.

 

[kEiThZ]

Just hop on an Ontario HSR train to Toronto. Pay a different fare and wait for a Toronto to Montreal HFR ViaRail train. Then get off at Central Station in Montreal and take an REM train with your luggage and a different fare and then get on another ViaRail HFR train at a different station in Montreal.

Linear transfers suck. And yet people disagree when I say that Sheppard should be converted to LRT.....

It is indeed extremely moronic that the two provinces and the federal government can't sit down and come up with a cohesive plan. But not all that unusual when you realize that none of them actually care about making any of these promises reality.

 

[robmausser]

Linear transfers suck. And yet people disagree when I say that Sheppard should be converted to LRT.....

It is indeed extremely moronic that the two provinces and the federal government can't sit down and come up with a cohesive plan. But not all that unusual when you realize that none of them actually care about making any of these promises reality.

Transfers suck on public transit, but are doable.

They are an absolute deal breaker when I have a backpack, a carry on and a large suitcase with me.

 

[Allandale25]

Also, didn't we establish earlier that VIA HFR doesn't need an EA? Could be wrong on that though.

Why wouldn't it need an EA?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Honestly, I find it less silly that you need to transfer in Montreal when going from Toronto to Quebec City than it is ridiculous that there is no grade separated highways completely connecting Montreal and Toronto.

And some of the outrage over the lack of network connectivity should be directed at the need for a transfer at Union when going from Lakeshore East to Lakeshore West, or the lack of through-routing of other GO lines.

wait, what? I just drove from QC to Toronto via Montreal less than a month ago and it was certianly 100% grade separated. What are you talking about? the small gap in A-20? You know you can take A-40, instead, right?

You also realize that outside of rush hour you almost never need a transfer to go from lakeshore east to west, right?

 

[SaugeenJunction]

They've been in power for 2.5 years now. They don't seem serious at all about making changes on inter-city transport. I was of the opinion that they might at least do something with VIA HFR. It's infrastructure, has real economic benefits, reduces greenhouse gas emissions from aviation and autos. Instead, there's no evidence they've even finished all the feasibility studies that would be required.

They say it needs more study. What the fuck have they been doing for the last 2.5 years?

If I wanted a government that would do the bare minimum on VIA, I would've voted for the Conservatives. This government only cares about new social programs and photo ops for new municipal water treatments. They don't actually care about delivering infrastructure of any strategic and national relevance at all.

The only thing that will have me supporting Trudeau is tangible progress on this by the next election. Not more study. I mean an announcement of funding and investors. Anything less and I might just rage donate the maximum amount to Scheer's campaign.

Firstly, there is no need for profanities, stay classy my friend.

To set the facts straight, there have been tangible steps forward. The studies were funded, and it looks like fleet is going to be replaced according to Transport Minister Marc Garneau. The Prime Minister says he supports HFR in principle, which is huge. As has been explained to death in this thread, large projects won't go forward until the Infrastructure Bank is running. It is now running, and HFR is one of the few large-scale projects in Canada that is almost ready for funding. Understanding Canadian political process and the subtleties of the political game are key to understanding the HFR funding issue, and I urge patience.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Why wouldn't it need an EA?

Was able to dig this post up, but maybe re-laying new tracks past Havelock would have an impact.

I wish I could write more about this, but I'll have to limit myself to the two following remarks:

At the same time, other, more industry-specific sources quoted 110 mph (177 km/h) as maximum speed (i.e. still compatible with level crossings, if I read the Grade Crossing Regulations correctly) and the fleet specifications released by VIA mentioned 125 mph (201 km/h) as anticipated maximum speed of its future fleet...


The fastest scheduled time I could find in my timetable archive was 1:35 (train 37 in VIA timetable effective 2002/10/27). You might also recall that modest realignments of existing ROWs can be done even without triggering an environmental assessment. Then, compare the current route with the map posted by alexanderglista and you might notice a small detail. Finally, take a train from Montreal to Ottawa (or track it online) and analyse the average speed until it reaches the "mainland" at Dorion...

 

[crs1026]

A while back the EA question came up with respect to the London HSR and I posted this regulation which appears to say that an EA is required if over 30 kms of new right of way is required, or if speeds over 200 km/hr are to be operated.

I'm not a lawyer but I would bet money that VIA would end up in court if it took the position that the Havelock line is not a "new" ROW construction, given that a) the rails east of Havelock have been torn up for over 40 years and b) title for parts of the ROW has been conveyed to other owners who have not used the ROW as a railway in the past 40 years, either.

While we may hope to see HFR built, not everyone does. An EA is just such an obvious procedural step for major infrastructure that it would be quite reckless to try to sidestep that.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

Also, wouldn't VIA need or want to straighten out any of the curves on the Havelock Sub? Wouldn't some adjustments be needed for the route in some of the communities where new buildings have been constructed close to the tracks? Probably safer (and required) just to do the EA so that local residents don't feel left out in the process.

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, that's how to make things go faster. Create a process that the locals can contribute in ...

Some curves ... but there's very little money on the table for that.

Someone mentioned though that the land had been sold off. Is the corridor itself still under one (or two) ownerships? Or are they going to have to expropriate thousands of little land parcels?

 

[robmausser]

Also, wouldn't VIA need or want to straighten out any of the curves on the Havelock Sub? Wouldn't some adjustments be needed for the route in some of the communities where new buildings have been constructed close to the tracks? Probably safer (and required) just to do the EA so that local residents don't feel left out in the process.

Curves can be mitigated somewhat by the right kind of tilting rolling stock.

Not a perfect solution but a band-aid solution.

Keep in mind this is HFR not HSR, the trains won't be going 300 kmh.

Slowing to 80 km/h for a curve is still a world better than stopping dead on the tracks for 30 minutes to let a freight train by.

 

[crs1026]

Someone mentioned though that the land had been sold off. Is the corridor itself still under one (or two) ownerships? Or are they going to have to expropriate thousands of little land parcels?

The last time I looked at a map, it was in a small number of hands... Bell and the trails foundation being the vast majority landowners. However, from driving down that way, there are numerous places where bits of the line have gradually been merged into extensions of peoples' front lawns and backyards. Those may not be strictly according to title .... Bell may not care in practice whether they have a discrete property line so long as their crews can access as they would with an easement.

This kind of gradual blurring of the original legal status is the stuff that lawsuits are made of. Everyone forgets or ignores the reality, until the survey crew comes along and starts staking..... or drilling boring samples. And suddenly the lawyers are filing estoppel claims.

Which is why these consultation and EA processes, while they sound cumbersome, are a good thing - at least, they are faster and less cumbersome than if one just went ahead and let the chips fall - the EA fends off much of the legal avenues that could be used to block progress.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

Curves can be mitigated somewhat by the right kind of tilting rolling stock.

Tilting rolling stock doesn't change the minimum curve radius for a particular stretch of track. If a piece of track is only rated for 40mph because of a lack of spiral easement or paired reverse curves or due to a vertical curve, the fact that the rolling stock tilts is never going to change that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[dowlingm]

The last time I looked at a map, it was in a small number of hands... Bell and the trails foundation being the vast majority landowners. However, from driving down that way, there are numerous places where bits of the line have gradually been merged into extensions of peoples' front lawns and backyards.

The folks who planted gardens along CP Arbutus Subdivision in Vancouver saw them ripped out.

Curves can be mitigated somewhat by the right kind of tilting rolling stock.

Not a perfect solution but a band-aid solution.

Keep in mind this is HFR not HSR, the trains won't be going 300 kmh.

Slowing to 80 km/h for a curve is still a world better than stopping dead on the tracks for 30 minutes to let a freight train by.

Except tilting stock and slowing for a curve is exactly the situation in the recent derailment in Washington State - which was only 79mph down to 30mph. Tilt is ultimately a passenger comfort mechanism.

 

[nfitz]

The last time I looked at a map, it was in a small number of hands... Bell and the trails foundation being the vast majority landowners. However, from driving down that way, there are numerous places where bits of the line have gradually been merged into extensions of peoples' front lawns and backyards. Those may not be strictly according to title .... Bell may not care in practice whether they have a discrete property line so long as their crews can access as they would with an easement.

This kind of gradual blurring of the original legal status is the stuff that lawsuits are made of. Everyone forgets or ignores the reality, until the survey crew comes along and starts staking..... or drilling boring samples. And suddenly the lawyers are filing estoppel claims.

Looking at the property mapping in Lanark, Hasting, Frontenac, and Lennox and Addington, it doesn't look in too bad shape. But gosh, as it goes through the shield, so many curves, that look too tight. And so many level crossing once it leaves the shield.

And some of the biggest expense might be west of Havelock. It really goes through Peterborough. Like right through.

There seems to be way too much track to double-track in any reasonable budget too. Wasn't this the problem with the ... was it 1983/4 VIA proposal?