TTC: Streetcar Network

[EastYorkTTCFan]

For discussion...

I think he needs to read this forum before he posts another video about this. Some of his ideas are things that have already been discussed here and the reasons behind why they can and can't or will and won't be done here.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I think he needs to read this forum before he posts another video about this. Some of his ideas are things that have already been discussed here and the reasons behind why they can and can't or will and won't be done here.

Frankly I disagree; certain members of this forum (and no, I'm not targeting anyone in particular, there is a LOT of this) are far too absolute in their proclamations about "the way things are", and far to quick to dismiss anyone who doesn't accept their particular determinations thereof.

I am particularly annoyed when discussions of difficult project, be that difficulty political or physical, gets shouted down as impossible and not worth the time of day, and it seems to be happening more often here even as things have gotten somewhat better politically. Frankly I remember far too many years of the political atmosphere, and at times official position, being that that since no provincial money was around no serious person should so much as discuss rapid transit discussion in Toronto to have any sympathy for it.

 

[DSC]

Frankly I disagree; certain members of this forum (and no, I'm not targeting anyone in particular, there is a LOT of this) are far too absolute in their proclamations about "the way things are", and far to quick to dismiss anyone who doesn't accept their particular determinations thereof.

I certainly would not take every criticism or comment on UT seriously (even those posted by me) but there is a lot of great info here and it's generally worth listening and that's all @EastYorkTTCFan said

 

[aquateam]

I think he needs to read this forum before he posts another video about this. Some of his ideas are things that have already been discussed here and the reasons behind why they can and can't or will and won't be done here.

He is somewhat active in these forums.

Can you elaborate on which ideas can't/won't be done?

For discussion...

I definitely agree about replacing switches, I think the TTC is already doing that (albeit at a glacial pace.)

With regards to reducing the number of switches, I think that he contradicts himself a bit when he also proposes creating a number of new track linkages and new one-seat ride routes

About his fantasy proposals:

• In general, I think the TTC has largely given up on opening significant new mixed-traffic streetcar segments. I.e. if you're going through the expense of laying new track, either it has to either have its own lane (e.g. Cherry street/Queens Quay east proposal), fill in a short gap in the network (e.g. proposed Dundas streetcar extension to Gerrard OL station), replace a route that is running near capacity for buses (e.g. Dufferin) or have a good operational reason (the "Junction" extension to St. Clair, for instance.)
• I don't like his idea for more one-seat rides. Increasing the number of routes necessarily means reducing the frequency of rides (although they could converge in central sections.) Jarret Walker talks about how network redesigns changing from infrequent one-seat rides to high-frequency grids can drive ridership gains. It's also a bit contradictory to his point about reducing the number of switches in the system, since more routes would require more turns.

Broadview north extension
This is a residential area with a lot of single family housing and driveways fronting Broadview. I'm not convinced that this extension would be successful. Cosburn is higher density, but doesn't have the retail/commercial uses that are better for driving ridership.

Park Lawn Spur
I think this is a great idea to service the new GO station as well as the Humber Bay Shores area. My only concern is that I've heard, as the only exit road out of HBS, it can get very congested. So a RoW would be essential.

Dupont Streetcar
Historically, Dupont had a streetcar, which was downgraded to trolleybus and later to regular bus. Now the bus is half-hourly. I like that this would serve the Galleria development, but overall I don't think it's worth the investment to upgrade one of Toronto's lowest ridership bus routes (only 3 800 passengers/day)

Keele Streetcar
Going up Keele to connect with St. Clair - this would be good for non-revenue trackage but not for a passenger route, in general that section of Keele is notoriously congested as it is.

Eastern to Bathurst Streetcar
I like the idea of a new east-west route downtown to better serve SouthCore.
The west part of this proposal (between Bay and Bathurst) partially duplicates the long-planned Bremner LRT.
I think that the Queen/King streetcars will be "relieved" by the OL, which might make adding a new route on Front excessive.

I don't really know East York well enough to comment on those proposed linkages, but I do like the idea of terminating at subway stations instead of at loops.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I don't really know East York well enough to comment on those proposed linkages, but I do like the idea of terminating at subway stations instead of at loops.

Other than 501, 502 (when it's running), 503, 507, (if it returns) 508 (when running) all of the streetcar routes stop at least one subway station by lopping through them. 504 A Dundas West station to Distillery loop, 504 B Broadview station to Dufferin gate loop, 50 Dundas West to Broadview, 506 Main Street to High park loop, 509 Harbourfront Union station to Exhibition 510 Spadina Sapadin station to Union Station, 511 Bathurst Bathurst station to Exhibition loop and 512 St. Clari St. Clair station to Guns loop Via St. Clar West station.

 

[JSF-1]

New video up. This week its about the Parliament Streetcar; this is probably the one lost streetcar route in the city that really had zero reason to be abolished.

 

[DSC]

According to Steve Munro a couple of years ago the Castle Frank station structure is not robust enough to support streetcars. "Castle Frank, aside from having a small loop, also has, as I understand things from previous discussions of this idea, a problem with insufficient structural strength to carry a loop full of streetcars. "" Parliament is also a fairly narrow street so creating a ROW would be VERY difficult. I am a streetcar fan but lets' get TTC to deal with the network it now has before getting into major expansions.

 

[aquateam]

New video up. This week its about the Parliament Streetcar; this is probably the one lost streetcar route in the city that really had zero reason to be abolished.

I was going to comment earlier that reintroducing the Parliament streetcar would be an example alternative to some of Reece's suggested streetcar extensions.

I know the Parliament bus ridership isn't that high, but I think that the Ontario Line's Distillery station at Parliament/Front adds impetus to creating this line. Linking it up with the Waterfront East LRT would give people in the Portlands a more direct route to the OL as well (since the OL bypasses Cherry.)

Given that most of the trackage already exists, adding an extension north to Castle Frank and South to Queens Quay would create downtown's only north/south streetcar east of Yonge, anchored by two rapid transit lines, for a modest cost.

I only see a few issues:

• It'll have to run in mixed traffic, no room for LRT lanes (except maybe for a short section on Bloor)
• It'd be fairly slow, given all the intersections and the mixed-traffic running

 

[JSF-1]

I was going to comment earlier that reintroducing the Parliament streetcar would be an example alternative to some of Reece's suggested streetcar extensions.

I know the Parliament bus ridership isn't that high, but I think that the Ontario Line's Distillery station at Parliament/Front adds impetus to creating this line. Linking it up with the Waterfront East LRT would give people in the Portlands a more direct route to the OL as well (since the OL bypasses Cherry.)

Given that most of the trackage already exists, adding an extension north to Castle Frank and South to Queens Quay would create downtown's only north/south streetcar east of Yonge, anchored by two rapid transit lines, for a modest cost.

I personally believe that off Toronto's lost Streetcars lines Parliament and Dufferin are the ones with the greatest potential. With the development of the Port Lands and the Waterfront East LRT, Parliament has the potential to become the sort of "gateway" to the Port Lands, and if you were to merge it with the Waterfront East LRT you would have a North-South line running from Castle Frank to Union essentially becoming the eastern counterpart to the 510 Spadina. Then of course there is also the obvious network advantages of having that connection to Castle Frank Station thus taking some of the burden off of Broadview Station.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I personally believe that off Toronto's lost Streetcars lines Parliament and Dufferin are the ones with the greatest potential. With the development of the Port Lands and the Waterfront East LRT, Parliament has the potential to become the sort of "gateway" to the Port Lands, and if you were to merge it with the Waterfront East LRT you would have a North-South line running from Castle Frank to Union essentially becoming the eastern counterpart to the 510 Spadina. Then of course there is also the obvious network advantages of having that connection to Castle Frank Station thus taking some of the burden off of Broadview Station.

Maybe one of these years (decades?), on-street parking of all kinds will be banned on ALL public transit routes, streetcars AND buses. Except for short-term deliveries.

 

[DSC]

Maybe one of these years (decades?), on-street parking of all kinds will be banned on ALL public transit routes, streetcars AND buses. Except for short-term deliveries.

If a street is not wide enough for parking it should probably not have ANY parking/stopping. It just takes one delivery driver to block all traffic - esp. streetcars and buses..

 

[drum118]

Doing the Waterfront Master Transit Plan and other EA's for transit, Parliament Line was raise many times that it was needed and told it was outside our scoop and Castle Frank Station could not support an loop.

I fully agree that a Parliament Line should be built as a mix line and service the Portland.

I haven't looked at the video and going by what been posted, The Park Lawn Spur will be the new loop to service the new GO Station and the community with Humber Loop being remove.

Dufferin St needs streetcar line, but has many issues from King to Eglinton that the City needs to deal with and not listen to the whinners who will loose parking space. The hill starting at Dupont to St Clair needs to be tunnel due to grade issues as well the hill section south of Eglinton.

Broadview North is DOA until more density is built along it.

Dupont Is seeing a lot of development, but can have a line on it so long duel end cars are use as there is no place for loops. The Dupont Line can be part of the Bay St Line That I have call for all the way to QQ.

Keele Line has feet to be a line, but a number of issues needs to be deal with to do it like Jane.

Eastern Ave line is DOA for too many reasons.

My 2 cents.

 

[KhalilHeron]

I was going to comment earlier that reintroducing the Parliament streetcar would be an example alternative to some of Reece's suggested streetcar extensions.

I know the Parliament bus ridership isn't that high, but I think that the Ontario Line's Distillery station at Parliament/Front adds impetus to creating this line. Linking it up with the Waterfront East LRT would give people in the Portlands a more direct route to the OL as well (since the OL bypasses Cherry.)

Given that most of the trackage already exists, adding an extension north to Castle Frank and South to Queens Quay would create downtown's only north/south streetcar east of Yonge, anchored by two rapid transit lines, for a modest cost.

I only see a few issues:

• It'll have to run in mixed traffic, no room for LRT lanes (except maybe for a short section on Bloor)
• It'd be fairly slow, given all the intersections and the mixed-traffic running

I mean car traffic on parliament would be fine with 1 lane in each direction the city just doesn't have the balls. Most businesses back onto alleyways already so stopping for deliveries shouldn't be an issue, and north of dundas there are enough side streets to park on, and south of it there are still quite a few surface parking lots that can be redeveloped to include underground public parking if it's that big a deal

 

[nfitz]

I don't really know East York well enough to comment on those proposed linkages, but I do like the idea of terminating at subway stations instead of at loops.

East York? I don't know how one does anything there with no streetcar track currently. I suppose extending 505 or something to a future Cosburn station ... or even further to Toronto East hospital might make sense.

Where is this list published? Who is this Martin guy - I encountered him on Twitter the other day ... he seemed to think very highly of himself, and that I was supposed to know his name or something ...

 

[aquateam]

According to Steve Munro a couple of years ago the Castle Frank station structure is not robust enough to support streetcars. "Castle Frank, aside from having a small loop, also has, as I understand things from previous discussions of this idea, a problem with insufficient structural strength to carry a loop full of streetcars. "" Parliament is also a fairly narrow street so creating a ROW would be VERY difficult. I am a streetcar fan but lets' get TTC to deal with the network it now has before getting into major expansions.

He also says this when someone suggestions an underground connection to Castle Frank for an across-the-platform link to the subway:

Steve: [...] The ramp down on Parliament would be challenging given the narrowness of the street and the fact that expansion is almost impossible with St. James Cemetery on one side and the underground structures (parking) of St. James Town on the other. Struturally, merging in a streetcar loop with the existing station would be quite a challenge. It would have to be at the mezzanine level to avoid conflicting with the subway itself, and this would likely run into utilities under Bloor Street.

None of these are insurmountable: the bus loop can be reinforced, and utilities can be moved for a tunnel. But it sounds like it is much more of an ordeal than simply laying down track.

If this were a new subway line with money raining down from the feds, the province, and the city then the connection would be a no-brainer. But for the TTC's regular capital budget where the purse strings are much tighter it's much harder to justify a ~300 meter tunnel or station rebuild on a cost-benefit basis with the current ridership of the Parliament bus.

East York? I don't know how one does anything there with no streetcar track currently. I suppose extending 505 or something to a future Cosburn station ... or even further to Toronto East hospital might make sense.

Where is this list published? Who is this Martin guy - I encountered him on Twitter the other day ... he seemed to think very highly of himself, and that I was supposed to know his name or something ...

Ah oops I meant Upper Beaches. He proposed replacing Bingham loop with an extension up Victoria Park to Danforth. There's no "list", just him describing his fantasy streetcar map in the video linked a page back.

This is the section of Victoria Park it would be going through, a two-lane residential road, so I'm a bit skeptical that the bus merits being replaced with a streetcar extension.