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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

Napoleon said:
Definitely a false dichotomy. The real problem is that if the streetcars trickle in at one a month, even with high quality, it will take over 11 years for them to finish delivering this order.
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That's if they never ramp up. That seems an extreme function. They seemed to average about 9 subway cars a month. Even if they could get it to 2 streetecars a month they'd all be here by 2023. (one a month will take 16 years). And I really hope they can hit 3 a month (2020) or 4 (2019).

If they cancel and retender, I doubt we'd see any more new streetcars until 2021 ... and then if things go really well maybe you have them all by 2025?

Napoleon said:
Well no suits have been filed yet, so we'll have to wait to see if the board decides to sue. Hard to say how much of this is for leverage versus how much they actually want in damages.
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Good point.
 
nfitz said:
That's if they never ramp up. That seems an extreme function. They seemed to average about 9 subway cars a month. Even if they could get it to 2 streetecars a month they'd all be here by 2023. (one a month will take 16 years). And I really hope they can hit 3 a month (2020) or 4 (2019).
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If the TTC sues Bombardier for slow delivery, will that speed up deliveries? If the issue with slow deliveries has been quality, is speeding up (assuming that's even possible on Bombardier's part) going to resolve that?
 
Napoleon said:
Definitely a false dichotomy.
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It's not a false dichotomy. Part of what is taking so long with production at this point is that the TTC's own inspectors are finding issues with the assembly of the vehicles at the plant, and requiring that the issues get resolved before they sign off on them and allow them to be shipped to Toronto.

In due time the assembly of the vehicles will get better and more consistent, and thus the delivery faster. But until they get to that point the choice is either going to have to be "good vehicles" or "fast delivery", and with nothing in between.

Of course, part of the solution to this is for Bombardier to throw more manpower at the problem, but that isn't a TTC problem per se - the contract cannot dictate how Bombardier solves the problem, only that they meet specific parameters.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Saw one of the new ones glide across the Spadina bridge tonight across the rail corridor past all the traffic, a great urban sight.

Unfortunately when trying to take the streetcar line later around the end of the jays game, it was a 10 min wait.
 
ehlow said:
Unfortunately when trying to take the streetcar line later around the end of the jays game, it was a 10 min wait.
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That's not so bad after a Jays game. That's an awful lot of people to move at once. I remember when I lived in Boston seeing the MBTA stack up about 10-20 green line cars on an extra track not too far from Fenway just waiting to go into service at the end of a game.
 
Napoleon said:
That's not so bad after a Jays game. That's an awful lot of people to move at once. I remember when I lived in Boston seeing the MBTA stack up about 10-20 green line cars on an extra track not too far from Fenway just waiting to go into service at the end of a game.
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I agree, the streetcars, the GO system and the subway system do a pretty good job distributing the crowds. Also the restaurants, bars & roads around.

Can't imagine the traffic at some of the stadiums that are surrounded by with parking lots after a game
 
On that topic I was going north at Dundas tonight after the game and 4 full trains passed by. It wasn't too bad since they were coming every few minutes though.
 
I'd say we're stuck with Bombardier. We're too far into the contract to overcome the switching costs and Ontario gov't requires local sourcing/production thus eliminating vendor options. The latter means Toronto can make only empty threats of blocking Bombardier from future bids on subways and light rail projects. Bombardier knows this, and I can just imagine their Board discussing this, with the transportation division guy saying Toronto has no choice, we can afford the fines, they need us more than we need them.
 
Meanwhile, it's now Oct. 22. 4412 was supposed to ship by yesterday. Where is it? Really hoping someone will tell us they just spotted it at Hillcrest.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I'd say we're stuck with Bombardier. We're too far into the contract to overcome the switching costs and Ontario gov't requires local sourcing/production thus eliminating vendor options. The latter means Toronto can make only empty threats of blocking Bombardier from future bids on subways and light rail projects. Bombardier knows this, and I can just imagine their Board discussing this, with the transportation division guy saying Toronto has no choice, we can afford the fines, they need us more than we need them.
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Don't block them - sue them and create a dent in their balance sheet instead - and if they pull out of that contract, then it would make a case to ban them for good fair and square.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Don't block them - sue them and create a dent in their balance sheet instead - and if they pull out of that contract, then it would make a case to ban them for good fair and square.

AoD
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It would end up in the courts with the case being heard in the 2020's, after the last new streetcar actually arrives.
 
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