TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[M II A II R II K]

A more localized and integrated GO line would be even better. People can connect at Kipling if they want to go somewhere in Etobicoke, or continue on that line and get to Dundas West a lot faster and transfer there instead. And if they're going downtown, then just stay on that GO train, preferably if it were an EMU train or something with a few extra stations close to that Dundas East.

 

[Dan416]

I've always said a Dundas subway is needed along with upgraded GO. They serve completely different markets and I see little overlap between them.

 

[doady]

GO would be just getting people form one node to another (i.e. Cooksville to downtown). In terms of actually serving local trips along the Dundas corridor itself, it is insufficient.

Upgraded GO Train services would probably actually only increase demand for local transit in Mississauga, rather than reduce local transit ridership. Corridors like Hurontario, Dundas, Dixie, etc. are already extremely busy corridors as is, can you imagine how busy they would be if they had connections to frequent, all-day GO Train services?

I think it make perfect sense to connect the Bloor-Danforth subway to the Hurontario-Main LRT, directly connecting two Urban Growth Centres, aligned within a very busy local transit corridor with high redevelopment potential (Dundas Street East). The options are LRT and subway, and I think subway makes the most sense.

 

[ehlow]

So, for example then, if Mississauga was it's own city, then the Bloor line would be extended there? Mississauga is only 15 km down Bloor from Bay - which is closer than Scarborough Centre, when is 19 km.

I don't think it's this simple.

Imagine the Bloor line extended deep into Mississauga, it would take hours to take it into Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

Imagine the Bloor line extended deep into Mississauga, it would take hours to take it into Toronto.

Hours? No - thinking about a U of T student downtown. It's 12 km now from Kipling to St. George, with a 23-minute travel time. About 31 km/hr.

However, speeds would be higher further west, with a lot less stops. Let's assume 36 km/hr.

Extending to Square One is about 11 km. At 36 km/hr this would only take 18 minutes. Making the travel time from Square One to Yonge only 41 minutes for 23 km. Not only would it not take hours, it would only take less than one.

It's not an express train, but I'm sure that people would use it. Compare to the 14.2 km from St. George to Kennedy (currently 25 minutes - 34 km/hr!). The extension to Sheppard/McCowan would add about 7.5 km, another 13 minutes at 36 km/hr. Total travel time 38 minutes for about 22 km.

Extending the Bloor line deep into Mississauga (to Hurontario) is a similar trip and travel time to extending it to Sheppard McCowan.

If you dismiss one as taking hours, doesn't that mean we shouldn't do the other?

 

[ehlow]

Hours? No - thinking about a U of T student downtown. It's 12 km now from Kipling to St. George, with a 23-minute travel time. About 31 km/hr.

However, speeds would be higher further west, with a lot less stops. Let's assume 36 km/hr.

Extending to Square One is about 11 km. At 36 km/hr this would only take 18 minutes. Making the travel time from Square One to Yonge only 41 minutes for 23 km. Not only would it not take hours, it would only take less than one.

It's not an express train, but I'm sure that people would use it. Compare to the 14.2 km from St. George to Kennedy (currently 25 minutes - 34 km/hr!). The extension to Sheppard/McCowan would add about 7.5 km, another 13 minutes at 36 km/hr. Total travel time 38 minutes for about 22 km.

Extending the Bloor line deep into Mississauga (to Hurontario) is a similar trip and travel time to extending it to Sheppard McCowan.

If you dismiss one as taking hours, doesn't that mean we shouldn't do the other?

I didn't put much thought into that remark, but your in depth analysis of it has convinced me. Mississauga deserves subways!!

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Expansion to Sherway Gardens at least should be in consideration.

 

[nfitz]

I didn't put much thought into that remark, but your in depth analysis of it has convinced me. Mississauga deserves subways!!

I've always thought so.

Expansion to Sherway Gardens at least should be in consideration.

When TTC looked at this option, the 2021 peak-hour ridership from Sherway (West Mall station) was only 700 riders. An extension to Dixie would have had 3,300 riders. They didn't quantify Square One because Mississauga wasn't interested in subways, and the length, cost, and timeframe was really outside of the study scope.

While this might have changed a bit, with the recent development there, Sherway in itself only makes sense if it's going further west.

 

[Dan416]

I think it's only logical that MCC get a subway. However, we'll see what the ridership is like on the Mississauga BRT. I think that'll give us a good benchmark of what kind of ridership to expect of a Bloor-Danforth subway extension. If the Mississauga BRT ends up overcrowded and underbuilt, I think we'll see the BD extension happen sooner rather than later. But that's a big if. Especially since it's going through this phased opening.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

That is very interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if ridership at Sherway Gardens has changed since then however.

This talk is making me think that an extension to Mississauga isn't actually that unreasonable. That report you linked to mentioned that Mississauga back then was looking at subway extensions not from Bloor but from Eglinton instead. Though Eglinton uses an easily extendable LRT, I think that an extension to Pearson Airport, let alone all the way to Hurontario, is rather unlikely in the short-medium term future due to lack of political will.

 

[Rainforest]

Sherway in itself only makes sense if it's going further west.

Even if the Bloor subway is extended west, I am not sure if a detour to Sherway, to the south of the rail line, is justified.

Although such detour does not add much to the route length, it surely will increase the complexity and cost quite a bit.

I would rather stay in the rail corridor, all the way to Dixie if possible. Or, go to Cloverdale Mall and then follow Dundas St.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Imagine the Bloor line extended deep into Mississauga, it would take hours to take it into Toronto.

Hours? No - thinking about a U of T student downtown. It's 12 km now from Kipling to St. George, with a 23-minute travel time.

I don't blame ehlow for saying 'hours'. It feels much longer than 23 minutes when you're stuck in that dark tube with only the wall and your phone to stare at.

 

[nfitz]

That is very interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if ridership at Sherway Gardens has changed since then however.

I expect it might have too, with a couple of unexpected residential buildings. But there's not much other trip generation there for AM peak. It wouldn't ever be much of a bus hub, unlike East Mall. But it would have to be a huge change for it to become a trip generator.

I would rather stay in the rail corridor, all the way to Dixie if possible. Or, go to Cloverdale Mall and then follow Dundas St.

I'm not sure there's space. Though the study at the time, did intersect the tracks again at Dixie station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Hours? No - thinking about a U of T student downtown. It's 12 km now from Kipling to St. George, with a 23-minute travel time. About 31 km/hr.

However, speeds would be higher further west, with a lot less stops. Let's assume 36 km/hr.

Extending to Square One is about 11 km. At 36 km/hr this would only take 18 minutes. Making the travel time from Square One to Yonge only 41 minutes for 23 km. Not only would it not take hours, it would only take less than one.

It's not an express train, but I'm sure that people would use it. Compare to the 14.2 km from St. George to Kennedy (currently 25 minutes - 34 km/hr!). The extension to Sheppard/McCowan would add about 7.5 km, another 13 minutes at 36 km/hr. Total travel time 38 minutes for about 22 km.

Extending the Bloor line deep into Mississauga (to Hurontario) is a similar trip and travel time to extending it to Sheppard McCowan.

If you dismiss one as taking hours, doesn't that mean we shouldn't do the other?

I didn't put much thought into that remark, but your in depth analysis of it has convinced me. Mississauga deserves subways!!

Really? Our GO RER plan serves Mississauga far better. There's no reason to extend Line 2 west from Kipling for the foreseeable future.

 

[salsa]

I think it's only logical that MCC get a subway. However, we'll see what the ridership is like on the Mississauga BRT. I think that'll give us a good benchmark of what kind of ridership to expect of a Bloor-Danforth subway extension. If the Mississauga BRT ends up overcrowded and underbuilt, I think we'll see the BD extension happen sooner rather than later. But that's a big if. Especially since it's going through this phased opening.

I would prefer a GO RER spur from the Milton Line.