TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[Hopkins123]

Even if the Bloor subway is extended west, I am not sure if a detour to Sherway, to the south of the rail line, is justified.

Although such detour does not add much to the route length, it surely will increase the complexity and cost quite a bit.

I would rather stay in the rail corridor, all the way to Dixie if possible. Or, go to Cloverdale Mall and then follow Dundas St.

Here's how they ought to build it if they are smart:




As you can see, the subway directly connects both with Cloverdale and Sherway Gardens, allows easy access to the 427/Dundas ramps for regional buses, walking transfer to Dixie GO Stn, a significant stretch of the Dundas corridor, the condo cluster around Mississauga Valley, the office towers at Robert Speck, and directly intercepts the Square One Transit Terminal with access to the mall.

Blindly following either Dundas or the rail corridor right across misses important nodes along the way.

 

[drum118]

There are no important nodes between Kipling and Dixie under your plan and will miss the heavy ridership on Dundas if development goes the way it should.

Can't use the rail corridor north of Dundas as there is no room other than underground. Ridership for Central Parkway will be low to support a station in the first place.

You are better off having a tram/train coming off the corridor and using Hurontario LRT to Sq One.

Sherway will never achieve the ridership as Yorkdale.

Don't support The loop of the LRT for the core and a new terminal is require east of the current one to support 125,000 riders daily considering it at 50,000+ now and double the original plan. Both MT & GO need to be under on roof.

 

[Dan416]

I wonder if it would make sense to end the Bloor line at Hurontario & Dundas, and if Square One is your destination you take the Hurontario LRT. Or is that forcing an unnecessary transfer?

 

[CDL.TO]

There are hundreds of thousands of people in Mississauga west of Hurontario. If we want MCC to be a real growth centre, we should also consider ways to improve access from west Mississauga and Milton to MCC.

As such, re-routing the Milton line RER to run via MCC would make a lot of sense. With transfers to the Bloor line at both Kipling and Dundas West, RER offers a quicker, higher capacity solution for Mississauga while still offering fast travel times to Etobicoke Centre and U of T.

 

[Hopkins123]

There are no important nodes between Kipling and Dixie under your plan and will miss the heavy ridership on Dundas if development goes the way it should.

Can't use the rail corridor north of Dundas as there is no room other than underground. Ridership for Central Parkway will be low to support a station in the first place.

You are better off having a tram/train coming off the corridor and using Hurontario LRT to Sq One.

Sherway will never achieve the ridership as Yorkdale.

Don't support The loop of the LRT for the core and a new terminal is require east of the current one to support 125,000 riders daily considering it at 50,000+ now and double the original plan. Both MT & GO need to be under on roof.

The Loop directly serves all those government and institutional buildings off Duke Of York. How is keeping the LRT straight up Hurontario going to address the need to directly serve this area with mass transit? The Loop in conjunction with the Bloor-Danforth extension alleviates the CCTT somewhat because commuters will intercept these lines at points sooner than at CCTT. CCTT should be expanded underground and kept in place. Having the BRT, LRT and subway all converge there will make commuters lives so much easier.

Ending the subway at Dundas & Hurontario is just like ending the subway at Kennedy Stn today, mere kilometres short of reaching the major transit hub of Scarborough, the Town/City Centre. Why enforce an unnecessary transfer when both the Dundas corridor and Square One can be served by the same line? Central Parkway also is at the southern periphery of the City Centre area where multiple high rise apartment buildings and townhouse complexes are located. With the 3 Bloor bus feeding directly into it (one of the busiest MT routes), I fail to see how such a station would be underused.

And it would be an egregious mistake to bypass Sherway. The alignment to head south to reach Sherway works out to be almost the same distance as heading straight across Dundas as Mississauga is at a diagonal to Toronto. You can't possibly be saying that a station at Wharton Way (the only possible intermediate stop) is more deserving than Sherway which already has going for it a hospital, several condos and office buildings and a major shopping centre destination (not to mention the adjoining big box cluster on North Queen). Take into account that it's a transit hub in its own right and that there's lots of potential for infill development there on both the Mississauga and Toronto sides and the boostering for a West Mall/Queensway station only grows.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I feel like if Toronto had more access to revenue tools and greater ability to fund its projects, an extension to Square One wouldn't even be debated, it would just be done.

But that is not the case so I suppose the debate should therefore be how much of a priority is this especially over other projects?

 

[dowlingm]

With Bonnie Crombie and John Tory elected, the expectation is that RER/SmartTrack will happen along Milton. What's unknown is what CPR want (although it definitely involves 1-2 tracks) and how those wants can be accommodated at pinch points in the corridor.

The biggest issue for the subway extension is how to get it out of Kipling past the condo building which lies south west to the tail tracks and parking lot. From what I remember of previous discussions, a route to Cloverdale Mall was easier than Sherway but the big ask was how to get it past 427.

As for extending to/into Mississauga, someone pointed out the other day (can't remember where I read it) that the extended Danforth subway to Scarborough will be longer in total length than the Bloor side.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Man, this conversation really got into fantasy land quickly. It makes zero sense to extend the subway to MCC or environs given the alternative of improved GO service plus the Hurontario LRT. While it certainly wouldn't take a literal hour to get from MCC to St. George via subway, there are few who would take such a long trip when better options are available.

Don't forget that the Milton line already stops at Kipling station...

 

[BurlOak]

The biggest issue for the subway extension is how to get it out of Kipling past the condo building which lies south west to the tail tracks and parking lot. From what I remember of previous discussions, a route to Cloverdale Mall was easier than Sherway but the big ask was how to get it past 427.

There is easily 6 or 8m between the tracks and the condo property. Plenty of room to squeeze through at grade. Bit of a retaining wall would be needed, and covered to reduce the noise. Tunnelling would be required with a launch site west of East Mall to go under 427 and the railway to Sherway. It would probably have to go elevated to Dixie. The other good thing is that this can be built incrementally one stop at a time with limited disruption.

Cutting back the tail tracks and then curving up to Dundas would also be possible, but much more disruptive and probably a couple of hundred million more expensive. From Cloverdale, the tunnelling would have to under 427 and then the Etobicoke Creek too, making the next station only at Dixie due to the depth - again adding even more cost.

 

[drum118]

There is easily 6 or 8m between the tracks and the condo property. Plenty of room to squeeze through at grade. Bit of a retaining wall would be needed, and covered to reduce the noise. Tunnelling would be required with a launch site west of East Mall to go under 427 and the railway to Sherway. It would probably have to go elevated to Dixie. The other good thing is that this can be built incrementally one stop at a time with limited disruption.

Cutting back the tail tracks and then curving up to Dundas would also be possible, but much more disruptive and probably a couple of hundred million more expensive. From Cloverdale, the tunnelling would have to under 427 and then the Etobicoke Creek too, making the next station only at Dixie due to the depth - again adding even more cost.

Have you every visit the area to see what there now?? I mean from all sides.

Explain to us how you can squeeze the subway pass that condo when there is no room in the rail corridor at grade??

 

[Fred.S]

My opinion is that for the most part, our subways are at their maximum length (except for the STC extension, and obviously Sheppard), and people in adjacent municipalities should not be encouraged to commute on the system more than they already do. Toronto is densifying, and the subway system, both the bloor and yonge lines get overcrowded. Spadina up to Vaughan may be alright, but that's about it. The subway becomes very inneficient when it fills up on the ends, still has to stop at all the intermediate stations, where few new passengers can get on, and only charge at most $3 for it. The system has to shift so commuters from outside are taking the GO train, and that system should be expanded. At most, Mississauga should build their own LRT/BRT/Subway to connect to Kipling, but not through-route it. Otherwise Torontonians are increasingly subsidizing 905 riders.

 

[BurlOak]

The problem is that some think that a subway is not warranted unless it has 15k or 20k per hour.

I do agree that Square 1, UTSC, and Markham are too far to extend subways, but short extensions to 427 (maybe Sherway), Kingston Road (for B-D), Richmond Hill may be warranted. They would also give an opportunity to improve the terminal stations.

 

[dowlingm]

An short extension which put some storage capacity on the end (such as that envisaged for a Yonge line extension) might be of some use in terms of minimising deadheading time (which narrows the amount of maintenance that can be done during night closures).

 

[BurlOak]

Have you every visit the area to see what there now?? I mean from all sides.

Explain to us how you can squeeze the subway pass that condo when there is no room in the rail corridor at grade??

I was there this spring or last fall - can't remember. I did not trespass, but I consciously looked at the condo area.

I attach a sketch from City of Toronto website. From the property line, I drew 8.6m and it is well away from the building. The subway is 3m wide x 2 direction, plus 2 x 0.75m wall thickness for the retaining structure = 7.5m wide strip needed.

What is needed is a retaining wall about 60 to 100m long. This would vary in height, reaching about 8m maximum. Instead of this though, I would propose "tunnel" that is retaining the embankment on the north, covered above, and open to the south (or discrete columns with openings). This serve to retain the embankment, reduce noise to condo, and open on the south so it doesn't count as a tunnel along with the pedestrian egress requirements of a tunnel.

Construction would be a sheet pile wall (that will be left in place, or possibly pile and lagging) against the embankment, then some excavation of the embankment and building concrete "tunnel" structure. This would progress westward in small increments until the entire structure is built.

The old Canadian Tire and the next factory over are more in the way, but if this area is expected to redevelop, they will be gone.

Plus: The cost of this "tunnel" would be about $20M

 

[innsertnamehere]

If you think you need 15k an hour for a subway we will never build another subway line again. That number is simply absurdly high. The DRL doesn't even hit it when fully built out from Eglinton to Dundas West.