Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

Unless someone can provide the numbers to show otherwise, I would suspect that just like major cities like Toronto subsidize the less-populated spread out regions of Canada, the much higher density in downtown Toronto subsidizes the more sprawling suburbs when it comes to funds for roads or other city infrastructure (including fire station coverage).

Well yeah, that makes sense. Higher densities = more people using services per linear/square/cubic metre than in a less dense area. A suburban 2 lane road has 2 houses every 15m contributing to maintaining that 15m of roadway. The same 15m section of road in downtown would have anywhere from 10 units to 100+.

 

[SimonP]

You can already get this with reserve lanes and express buses...


An analyst from Montreal explained Ford victory with this...Toronto wanted the amalgation and got the suburbs taxes so they could invest massively within Old Toronto. Politicians except Ford understood that even if most residential taxes came from the suburbs, so did the majority of the votes. People felt tired of sending all those taxes and felt ignored by City all. They voted for the only candidate in who they felt would best served their interests.

Do you have a link for that, because that "analyst" doesn't know what they're talking about.

It was the old city of Toronto that was most opposed to amalgamation, in part because it would lead to suburban domination.

Moreover, at the moment more taxes are collected downtown than are spent there, so it's the Old City that is subsidizing everyone else. This was always going to be the case, as the suburbs mostly had worse services than the old city, and it's costing a fortune to bring them up to the same level.

 

[kd86]

Thats BS FIRST and FOR MOST I"VE live in Scarborough for 18 yrs and I'm only 24 I know how transit works her. Andrew your arguments does not hold any ground. If we had billion of dollars to waste of course i would choose subway over the SRT but we dont have that kind of money. so instead of wasting our time in creating ONE dump stop at Lawrence. " (oh which by the way if you ever been to scaboroguh you would know that theres a big hydro field runing through the site so there no development opportunity there) why not save money and upgrade to MARK II trains where development opportunity is greater. Being a Scarborough native for more then half my life I can tell you the only reason why Mildand and Ellesemer are under used is
a) the 95 bus doesnt connect to the station
b)the land use that surrounds the SRT corridoor is all industrial. once the city relaxe zoning it will allow for more transit friedly development

oh by the way Andrew what happens to the infrastructure once the subway is completed. I hope you calculated the cost of ripping down all that perfectly fine infrastructure.

What happens to Cenntenniale College...................I guess they also get put in the dark when it comes to rapid
just for the sake of deleting a dump transfer point. " give me a break if you used that argument i guess we should have one seat trips from Jane and Finch or Rexdale" as well

At the end of the day a subway to Scarborough Town Centre...............does ^%#@&^&^ nothing in improving transit to the rest of Scarborogh. Who cares that a transfer point will be eliminated the benefits of that is marginal compared to having rapid transit to malvern, morningside heights, Galloway , Orton Park..........area I'm sure you've never tried commuting too
DON't get me wrong Andrew im NO LRT advocate either but really SRT are cheaper to build and easier to extend. Its' also easier to justify if expansion is needed further north. remember 10 000 is needed to warnt a subway and im sure the ridership past sheppard is way under 10 000. only 8 000 is needed for SRT.

At the end of the day when funding is tight I rather see money go towards expanding rapid transit not replacing one for another

 

[gweed123]

Do you have a link for that, because that "analyst" doesn't know what they're talking about.

It was the old city of Toronto that was most opposed to amalgamation, in part because it would lead to suburban domination.

Moreover, at the moment more taxes are collected downtown than are spent there, so it's the Old City that is subsidizing everyone else. This was always going to be the case, as the suburbs mostly had worse services than the old city, and it's costing a fortune to bring them up to the same level.

But that suburban domination existed in the old Metro as well. By and large, I don't think there was single municipality in Ontario in the 90s that actually favoured amalgamation.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The GO Train is actually clear evidence that people don't want distantly spaced express stops. Almost all the GO Transit stations in Toronto have limited passenger numbers. Give people a choice between TTC style local transit, and GO high speed express transit, and almost everyone seems to prefer the TTC.

If speed were the top priority, then Mimico and Long Branch stations would be packed and no one would take the Queen streetcar downtown.

There is also a price difference between the two modes, but if people aren't willing to pay $2 more for an express trip, then why should taxpayers spend billions to build express lines.

Bullshit, GO stations in the 416 are sparingly used because the type of service is nowhere near what is provided by the TTC. Riders in Toronto don't want peak service only they want a true regional transit service that runs most of the day.

 

[SimonP]

Well, why not use articulated buses then? Higher capacity, lower operating costs, and improved rider experience. We can even put in bus lanes as well. All this can be done for a few hundred million, tops. Far less than the billion needed to build an extra long tramway.

LRT is still better than BRT on all three of those measures. The Ottawa Transitway hits 10,000 peak passengers per hour, more than any of the Transit City routes are planned to. But it takes 175 buses to do this. One about every 20 seconds. You'd have far fewer buses, and operators, needed to run an LRT. 10,000 is also pretty much the system maximum, LRT can handle more people per hour. This is a large part of the reason that Ottawa is replacing the system with light rail.

The biggest issue though is the last one. Rider experience is hard to measure, and transit engineers sometimes ignore it becuase its hard to put a number on it. But it is real, and substantial, and there is strong evidence that even with speed, frequency, capacity, and everything else being equal, riders prefer a rail based system to a bus based one by a considerable margin.

That's reflected in elections. You certainly didn't see any candidates trumpeting the advantages of BRT. That's because if you suggest it to a focus group or do any polling, bus based options get a strong negative reaction.

 

[SimonP]

Bullshit, GO stations in the 416 are sparingly used because the type of service is nowhere near what is provided by the TTC. Riders in Toronto don't want peak service only they want a true regional transit service that runs most of the day.

Exactly my point. Speed isn't the top priority. Frequency, close stops, extended hours, system integration, and price are also crucial. LRT beats subway on accessibility, and can also win out on hours and frequency. Indirectly it wins out on price, as we have to pay for subways one way or the other.

Subways win out massively on capacity, but that's not an issue with the Transit City lines. They also win out on speed, but LRT can make up for being slower in those other ways.

 

[kEiThZ]

This is the thing which frustrates me the most about these discussions. LRT when done right IS real rapid transit. It can evenl maintain this even if running at grade along a right of way. When done right, LRT and subways are on virtually equal footings mentally, as both can provide the same level of fast and efficient service. Take a look at this thread (http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?12557-Videos-of-Light-Rail-RAPID-Transit&daysprune=-1) to see how it can be done right.

Thing is, most of Transit City is not like this. Its stop spacing is only slightly larger than local service. Sheppard East will be more like a European tramway: an enhanced local service rather than a true LRT that would be competitive with driving across Scarborough and Toronto.

And this is what frustrates me about Sheppard East too. It's just a billion dollar replacement for the 190....this time pointed to the zoo. Skipping STC. Seriously?

In my most humble opinion, the fundamental problem with Transit City is that it started as an exercise in urban renewal (or corridor/avenues renewal) rather than a sincere effort at moving people across the city.

The SELRT is not a plan to move the masses of NE Scarborough. It's a plan to densify Sheppard. That's a laudable goal to be sure. But that's not what the residents in the area want or need right now. If it's genuinely an effort at moving people, how can anybody justify not having branches to STC or Malvern Town Centre? And given how much room there is past Agincourt, what's wrong with simply using curb side lanes for buses? They could speed up every single bus running on Sheppard. It could be done in months, for a relative pittance (compared to LRT).

There's lines in TC that I can support wholeheartedly. I wish Eglinton was fully grade separated. But even if it's not, I'll grudgingly support it as planned. But Sheppard to me simply reeks of an attempt to kneecap the Sheppard subway and basically put an end to any and all subway expansion that's exclusively 416 (because we all know that subway extensions to the 905 will happen when the right areas get an influential cabinet minister). That's the reason I'd rather see a reset on that corridor.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well, why not use articulated buses then? Higher capacity, lower operating costs, and improved rider experience. We can even put in bus lanes as well. All this can be done for a few hundred million, tops. Far less than the billion needed to build an extra long tramway.

+1

OMFG. I think this everytime I ride a TTC bus. IMHO, every bus that operates on a major suburban avenue (Finch, Sheppard, Steeles) should be an artic.

 

[toraerach]

Telling 1,2 Million people (Scarborough and North York) that rapid transit is too good for them. Telling them that where they live is irrelevent to the city is beyond ARROGANT and people are tired of it. STC and NYCC not being linked by Rapid transit is beyond retarded and any world class urbanist would be shaking is head in disbelief.

Too good for them? The only rapid transit expansion (subway/RT) we've had in Toronto since 1980 has either been in North York or Scarborough. Planned extensions to the subway system, including the only project we're almost certain to get (Spadina extension), serve only North York within the 416. The problem is that there are people all over Toronto who don't have easy access to the subway. Is rapid transit too good for the people living in the Beaches? In Parkdale? In Southern Etobicoke? In Rexdale? All along Eglinton?

People in the suburbs need to realize that if they want subways (which they apparently think they "deserve"), they're going to have to pay for them. You can't have lower taxes and better service. Transit City wasn't the best plan in the world, but it brought better service to areas all across the city (except downtown), and at the end of the day it remained relatively affordable. It could've and should've been planned better, but to cancel it completely now when money has been committed and spent already is just foolish. Do all those of us who don't live in Scarborough deserve to foot the bill for the work done already only to see projects that would've improved transit in our neighbourhoods evaporate?

 

[Paleo]

The Sheppard boosters use the term "urban growth centre" like others use "war on cars" as if it's a self-evident justification for doing anything stupid. It's an urban growth centre therefore subway! FULL STOP. If pressed, give a vague, hard to quantify answer.

Too good for them? The only rapid transit expansion (subway/RT) we've had in Toronto since 1980 has either been in North York or Scarborough. Planned extensions to the subway system, including the only project we're almost certain to get (Spadina extension), serve only North York within the 416. The problem is that there are people all over Toronto who don't have easy access to the subway. Is rapid transit too good for the people living in the Beaches? In Parkdale? In Southern Etobicoke? In Rexdale? All along Eglinton?

People in the suburbs need to realize that if they want subways (which they apparently think they "deserve"), they're going to have to pay for them. You can't have lower taxes and better service. Transit City wasn't the best plan in the world, but it brought better service to areas all across the city (except downtown), and at the end of the day it remained relatively affordable. It could've and should've been planned better, but to cancel it completely now when money has been committed and spent already is just foolish. Do all those of us who don't live in Scarborough deserve to foot the bill for the work done already only to see projects that would've improved transit in our neighbourhoods evaporate?

1980 or 1970?

 

[kEiThZ]

Thats BS FIRST and FOR MOST I"VE live in Scarborough for 18 yrs and I'm only 24 I know how transit works here.

I've spent just as much time in Scarborough and I vehemently disagree with your views.

Andrew your arguments does not hold any ground.

Neither do yours. See my post and feel free to explain how an SRT terminus at Sheppard and Progress will help Malvern.

If we had billion of dollars to waste of course i would choose subway over the SRT but we dont have that kind of money.

Have you read up on the costs? The costs for conversion to MkIIs aren't as low as you think and the price differential isn't as big as you think.

so instead of wasting our time in creating ONE dump stop at Lawrence.

Riders from Midland, Ellesmere and McCowan would get centred on STC not Lawrence.

" (oh which by the way if you ever been to scaboroguh you would know that theres a big hydro field runing through the site so there no development opportunity there)

So you already know that a future Lawrence East subway station is going to be exactly where the existing SRT station is today? Can I borrow your crystal ball when I review my portfolio?

why not save money and upgrade to MARK II trains where development opportunity is greater.

...and run an orphan fleet, keep the transfer at Kennedy, inadequately support the largest transit/transport hub in the eastern GTA and a provincially designated urban growth centre...

Being a Scarborough native for more then half my life I can tell you the only reason why Mildand and Ellesemere are under used is
a) the 95 bus doesnt connect to the station

Riiight. Because nobody from the east actually wants to get off at STC? Your assumption that all riders on the 95 are bound for the SRT solely to head onwards to the Bloor-Danforth line is what's fundamentally flawed. They head to STC so that they can get take buses that take them north, access GO transit, AND take the SRT. Not to mention shop, access government services or employment or visit friends at STC.

b)the land use that surrounds the SRT corridoor is all industrial. once the city relaxe zoning it will allow for more transit friedly development

The SRT has been around awhile. Hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, have a stroll around STC and tell me there's no transit friendly development going on there. Or that it doesn't have potential for even more.

What happens to Cenntenniale College...................I guess they also get put in the dark when it comes to rapid

Can you please respond to my earlier post and explain what's so inadequate about the high frequency Progress bus from STC? And please tell me how extending the SRT will help the vast majority of Centennial College students who don't come from STC. It certainly won't help all those students who take the Markham bus...given that there's you know....no stop on Markham Rd. I means, it's only one of the busiest avenues and busiest bus routes in the city. I have no issues with throwing the few Centennial college students under the proverbial bus to help out the rest of Scarborough which would benefit massively from extending the Bloor-Danforth to STC.

just for the sake of deleting a dump transfer point. " give me a break if you used that argument i guess we should have one seat trips from Jane and Finch or Rexdale" as well

Eliminating a dump transfer point is one benefit among many.

At the end of the day a subway to Scarborough Town Centre...............does ^%#@&^&^ nothing in improving transit to the rest of Scarborogh. Who cares that a transfer point will be eliminated the benefits of that is marginal compared to having rapid transit to malvern, morningside heights, Galloway , Orton Park..........area I'm sure you've never tried commuting too

I have. An SRT terminus at Sheppard and Progress doesn't do much for Malvern and Morningside Heights either given that the planned routing doesn't intersect the Milner, Morningside, Nugget or Neilson buses. You know...all the busiest routes in Malvern. But it's a nice replacement for the Progress bus though. Gold plated service for Centennial college students and the few lucky souls who get to see their property values rise, near Sheppard and Progress. For the rest of Malvern, you can call the 3-5 minutes saved (which could also be achieved by cutting out a transfer) as a massive improvement. Of course, the fact that you would have to transfer to Sheppard kinda negates any time saved. And of course, you won't hear this from the TTC, they never bothered to update that lovely slide that tells you how much time you save with the SRT extension from Malvern Town Centre...even though the SRT is not going there anymore. And if they rejig routes to serve the SRT terminal, then we end up with a lot of truncated routes along every corridor in the community. Nugget East and West. Milner East and West. Neilson North and South (split at Sheppard). I'm still trying to figure out how they'll screw with the Progress bus. Or they launch new bus routes from the terminus and cut service on all the old ones...screwing over everybody who wants to travel locally.

And I fail to see how Orton Park or Galloway would be negatively impacted. They'd still be using a Lawrence East or STC subway station. Care to explain how anything would change for them if the SRT was extended to Malvern (too far north for them to benefit) or if they lost Ellesmere or Midland (both west of STC) or McCowan (nearly spitting distance from STC as far as bus rides are concerned).

DON't get me wrong Andrew im NO LRT advocate either but really SRT are cheaper to build and easier to extend. Its' also easier to justify if expansion is needed further north. remember 10 000 is needed to warnt a subway and im sure the ridership past sheppard is way under 10 000. only 8 000 is needed for SRT.

Take that logic a step further. Build the subway. Then run (much cheaper) at grade LRT or BRT along Progress and the old CN corridor right to Malvern. The monstrosity they have planned now though is appaling. It doesn't serve Markham Road or Milner Business Court. Are you seriously going to defend that?

At the end of the day when funding is tight I rather see money go towards expanding rapid transit not replacing one for another

Increasing capacity is a type of expansion. And a particularly valid rationale for a line that has the most potential to face bottlenecks in the future.
If you disagree, please let the planners of the Sheppard East LRT know....that lovely project which directly replaces bus routes and creates no cross-town capacity.

But aside from that, the plan as currently conceived is horrendous. I'd support an extension if there was even a hint of common sense to it. But there is absolutely none. When they skip Markham Road and plan a bus terminus that only intersects one bus route in the community it's purported to serve, the whole basis behind the project starts to get very shaky. And these decisions happened precisely because they had to grade separate the whole thing...because they had to use four car trains....because they had to serve demand on the STC-Kennedy alignment. In other words, demand on the STC-Kennedy alignment is driving transit planning on the STC-Malvern stretch. So they are over-spending on one stretch to underspend on the other.

And there's also that business of shutting down the SRT while performing the retrofit. Just imagine what that'll do for transit in Scarborough.

 

[kEiThZ]

Excellent points from someone who actually travels in Scarborough. I'd go so far as to say that the Centennial College RT extension would be less convenient than the existing Progress bus for college students since the bus goes right up to the main buildings while the RT station would be a rather dark and forested 10 minute walk.

From the perspective of actual riders rather than people looking at lines on a map, the subway extension to STC would be a massive expansion of rapid transit service in Scarborough.

Not just that. They will end up reducing bus service on Progress. The mass of students (and others) that get off at Markham and Progress will now face a rather steep walk up that hill on Progress to get to the Centennial campus. I want all the planners who decided not to have a stop at Markham to try walking up that hill on an icy day to tell me why anybody should have to do it on a regular basis because their bus service gets cut so that a select few (STC-Progress Campus direct travellers) get a comfy ride.

 

[kEiThZ]

Too good for them? The only rapid transit expansion (subway/RT) we've had in Toronto since 1980 has either been in North York or Scarborough.

You can thank Jack Layton and the other NDP cohorts for that. The same cabal that spawned Miller.

People in the suburbs need to realize that if they want subways (which they apparently think they "deserve"), they're going to have to pay for them. You can't have lower taxes and better service. Transit City wasn't the best plan in the world, but it brought better service to areas all across the city (except downtown), and at the end of the day it remained relatively affordable. It could've and should've been planned better, but to cancel it completely now when money has been committed and spent already is just foolish. Do all those of us who don't live in Scarborough deserve to foot the bill for the work done already only to see projects that would've improved transit in our neighbourhoods evaporate?

I agree on this...up to a point. By the same token are you saying that people in Scarborough should have no say in how public transit in their communities is built? If the residents there would rather trade an SRT extension for a subway extension to STC should that not be their call?

 

[kEiThZ]

The Sheppard boosters use the term "urban growth centre" like others use "war on cars" as if it's a self-evident justification for doing anything stupid. It's an urban growth centre therefore subway! FULL STOP. If pressed, give a vague, hard to quantify answer.

Like the LRT boosters using "Avenues" as self-evident justification for putting light rail on any line on a map that's a little bolder and straighter than those surrounding it?

The "urban growth centre" you deride is an actual provincial designation. And it's supposed to have an impact on planning...unless it's in Scarborough of course. In which case, you aim your transit planning....at Malvern.