GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Theoretically they could provide tunnel-only service, turning via crossover, but generally I'd be very surprised if we ever see TTC vehicles operate without an employee on board.
|
|
|
Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Theoretically they could provide tunnel-only service, turning via crossover, but generally I'd be very surprised if we ever see TTC vehicles operate without an employee on board.
Asterix
Active Member
Probably would have an operator/guard still on board. Just like the plans for the YUS line once they finish ATC installation and can fill the line with Toronto Rockets. The basic point though is that Mr. Column Writer has no basis for claiming operational savings by dispensing with an operator. As Graphic Matt points out, it ain't gonna happen (more people would be complaining about lack of safety than would be advocating to save the salary expense).
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I don't think that there's any particular attention being paid to the alignment in Scarborough, from the conversations I've had. It's pretty much just that the subway will be extended from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre. The map was obviously just drawn either hastily or by someone with little understanding of the challenges presented by the existing alignment.
I completely agree that Ford is just as frustrating an ideologue about everything running underground as other elements are with everything running in the middle of the street. If only we could plan based on the best system for the circumstances. That said, I suspect he could be persuaded to compromise on "grade separated" as opposed to underground. This is going to be a much bigger problem on Eglinton. If it were built right, in more of a Calgary-style with proper transit priority, it just makes a lot of sense as LRT. I hope he doesn't through out the baby with the bathwater, assuming the cost difference to heavy rail transit/automated light metro is too severe for it to be built in its entirety.
I don't think any of the existing stations on the RT are worth going out of the way to preserve, assuming that a different station would be built at Lawrence to capture the connecting bus passengers. This is particularly true since keeping the RT alignment would require long-term closures and one of the greatest strengths of the subway option is that it would allow the RT to remain open until its replacement is complete. I also think there's something to be said for retaining the RT alignment from Midland to STC for a potential future Sheppard extension.
Aecon was recently awarded a contract for $275 million to build 2.6 killometres of twin tunnel plus the Sheppard West station. Since the distance from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre is slightly less than double and would require two stations, a rough doubling of that amount could give something close to the actual construction cost.
As for the LRT network, my conversations with people in Morningside Heights have shown that they have absolutely no interest in light rail to Kingston Road. It doesn't match any of their established or future travel patterns. The same is true for people at UTSC. The elimination of the Malvern extension of the RT could be somewhat more problematic, but it doesn't really seem to have generated too much heated excitement in the area either.
kd86
New Member
Thank you "superman" you hit right on the head.
I'm so tired of subway advocated talking about extending the B-D line to Scarborough Town Centre. Doing that would do no nothing interms of expanding rapid transit in scarbough. Instead of exteding a subway to STC why not upgrade the current SRT to MARK II trains.
Some reason why we shouldnt extended the BD line:
A) it cost alot more comapred to upgrade the line to MARK II trains
B) you'll eliminate Ellesmer and midland station
C) a subway to STC means NO future rapid transit expansion to Centennial College or Malvern
some reasons why we should upgrade the SRT to MARK II trains
A) it will still have exclusive right of way so ROB FORD will support it
B) it will cost alot less money "espeically given the fact that the provincial govt aint giving us any more transit funding"
C) like "superman" said the eglinton line and the SRT could have a future connection, (thats what metrolinx wanted in the first place)
all in all i really hope ROB FORD sees the light and looks at the MARK II options instead of a subway
I'm so tired of subway advocated talking about extending the B-D line to Scarborough Town Centre. Doing that would do no nothing interms of expanding rapid transit in scarbough. Instead of exteding a subway to STC why not upgrade the current SRT to MARK II trains.
Some reason why we shouldnt extended the BD line:
A) it cost alot more comapred to upgrade the line to MARK II trains
B) you'll eliminate Ellesmer and midland station
C) a subway to STC means NO future rapid transit expansion to Centennial College or Malvern
some reasons why we should upgrade the SRT to MARK II trains
A) it will still have exclusive right of way so ROB FORD will support it
B) it will cost alot less money "espeically given the fact that the provincial govt aint giving us any more transit funding"
C) like "superman" said the eglinton line and the SRT could have a future connection, (thats what metrolinx wanted in the first place)
all in all i really hope ROB FORD sees the light and looks at the MARK II options instead of a subway
Ansem
Banned
He says he reads all of his emails...
send him a message
You'd have to rebuild Kennedy station...completely from Scratch
lead82
Senior Member
If you're going to do anything with the SRT, might as well build it out to SCC from Kennedy. Yes it will only have two stops, but so what? You will loose Midland and Ellesmere, neither of which get much usage. Instead, Scarbourough Centre residents will get a 1 train ride to downtown without the hassle of transferring at Kennedy. Kennedy is a terrible transfer station as passengers have to go 2 levels to switch trains.
If we're scrapping the Scarborough LRT, then its best a subway goes there instead. As for your argument that if subway is extended to Scarborough it will never get to Malvern, that's baloney. What's stopping TTC from extending it further north-east? For the time being we could bring the subway from Kennedy to SCC, then phase 2 to extend it to Sheppard and Malvern centre which would be a logical end-point for the B-D line in the east.
As for Sheppard, if Ford scraps the SELRT in favour of subway, then lets hope he can finish it to SCC in the east and Downsview in the west. He'll win over a lot of people if he can fix this mess and still get an Eglinton line built.
The next few months will be interesting indeed.
If we're scrapping the Scarborough LRT, then its best a subway goes there instead. As for your argument that if subway is extended to Scarborough it will never get to Malvern, that's baloney. What's stopping TTC from extending it further north-east? For the time being we could bring the subway from Kennedy to SCC, then phase 2 to extend it to Sheppard and Malvern centre which would be a logical end-point for the B-D line in the east.
As for Sheppard, if Ford scraps the SELRT in favour of subway, then lets hope he can finish it to SCC in the east and Downsview in the west. He'll win over a lot of people if he can fix this mess and still get an Eglinton line built.
The next few months will be interesting indeed.
Electrify
Senior Member
Between Long Branch and downtown, the GO train offers virtually parallel service to the Queen streetcar. The GO train stops at Long Branch, Mimico (Royal York), and Exhibition (Atlantic) before reaching Union. So should we end the Lakeshore East route at Long Branch, run it express from Long Branch to Union, or change the stop spacing on the GO train to every 200-400m? Because with the status quo, we are duplicating service and that is a waste.
The locals may want more stops, but they also want fast service (one of the main reasons people don't take transit is because it is "too slow"). They may want their Bear Patrol, but they don't want to pay taxes for it. More stops has a direct effect on speed. This is why we have duplication of service, to allow those who want the convenience of service to continue to have it, while those who want to travel further and faster the ability to do so as well.
Running parallel local bus service to an LRT is not a waste, it is a part of operating a transit network.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
More on Ford's motivations:
And:
Rest here: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/12/05/can-rob-ford-do-all-that/
Ford isn't anti-LRT and pro-subways. He's just anti-LRT. Transit construction is not a priority for this mayor.
And:
Rest here: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/12/05/can-rob-ford-do-all-that/
Ford isn't anti-LRT and pro-subways. He's just anti-LRT. Transit construction is not a priority for this mayor.
Calrissian
Active Member
This should not be a surprise to anyone. His transit plan was, is and always will be "no transit".
Calrissian
Active Member
Just read the complete article again, and this is exactly the worry pro-transit citizens had with Ford as mayer: that we "can't afford" transit. He's found a way to not only not work on new transit and funding, but also kill any of the current plans for transit (because they don't fall under his campaign), not even the ones Toronto isn't paying for...
This is a disgrace, even pro-subway-only supporters should be furious. But somehow, they won't be, and will just claim it gives Toronto time to breathe and work on new better plans.
Bullshit. This is a global embarrassment- not just local or national. Hugely irresponsible.
The Provincial government and city council better grow some balls and stop this nonsense.
Meanwhile, China breaks records with their latest bullet train endeavor... while Toronto struggles to get a freaking 10 km of LRT subway under Eglinton.
Last edited:
W. K. Lis
Superstar
He's the paragraph from the National Post above with his anti-transit position:
Even if faced with a growing price in oil, he does not want to provide an alternative to his beloved automobile.
Even if faced with a growing price in oil, he does not want to provide an alternative to his beloved automobile.
Paleo
Active Member
If that's what you consider parallel, then people can leave the LRT alone and just take 39E or 199 or whatever. The height of foolishness is to build capacity and then direct people away from it but keep saying it's not a waste.
Less than $600 million more, and upgrading to Mark II would also require a complete rebuild of Kennedy station, and several points along the line (most notedly the 90 degree tunnel curve).
No big loss. They're the two lowest-used stations on the system. And they would be replaced with new Lawrence East and Ellesmere stations that would get a much higher usage.
I call bullshit. Just because there's likely not going to be a subway doesn't mean there can't be LRT or BRT.
And he wouldn't support a subway? It was in his plan for f' sake!
If you read further back, I've demonstrated that if you juggle funding around, you can get a subway to STC for an extra $130 million over what's been committed now. It's not impossible.
Keep dreaming. Ain't gonna happen. Of all the aspects of Ford's "plan", the B-D extension to STC makes the most sense from a planning perspective.
SimonP
Active Member
The GO Train is actually clear evidence that people don't want distantly spaced express stops. Almost all the GO Transit stations in Toronto have limited passenger numbers. Give people a choice between TTC style local transit, and GO high speed express transit, and almost everyone seems to prefer the TTC.
If speed were the top priority, then Mimico and Long Branch stations would be packed and no one would take the Queen streetcar downtown.
There is also a price difference between the two modes, but if people aren't willing to pay $2 more for an express trip, then why should taxpayers spend billions to build express lines.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Above all, the Bloor-Danforth extension to STC makes even more sense now then it did before. Anybody who doesn't get why STC is important to NE Scarborough, probably hasn't been there in a while. It's the hub for accessing a lot of government services, there's a lot of jobs in the area and the whole place is densifying unlike any other node in Scarborough. Those who say it'll be a subway to a mall just don't get it.
It's a provincially designated urban growth centre (the only one in the 416 without a subway), and is slated to be the largest transit hub in the eastern GTA (again without subway access). Just more reasons the subway should terminate there.
All this is not an argument however to build the Sheppard subway to STC right away. Sheppard is not a transit priority for the city. It's not a priority for Scarborough...replacing the SRT is. It's unfortunate that Miller made it a priority and now we all the political fights we do, precisely because he sought to kill off suburban subway expansion with the SELRT rather than actually building on priority (Eglinton would have gone first if this was the case).
I do believe though that the Sheppard subway does need to built....even if it takes 15-20 years. Connecting STC to Downsview will utterly change travel patterns in the northern 416. I firmly believe that for car use to be seriously impacted, you have to provid real rapid transit. That can't come from LRTs which only really benefit the corridor they are on. Nobody on Finch East or Steeles East is going to travel down to Sheppard just to take the LRT to save 10 mins over the standard Sheppard East bus ride. Give them a subway there and this calculation will change.
As for the Mark II debate....that's worse than switching to LRT. Why would we want to operate an orphan fleet for another 30 years? We'll still have the transfer at Kennedy, the costs of retrofitting the existing line and an orphan fleet.
And who cares about losing stations? McCowan, Midland and Ellesmere are all glorified Kiss 'n Rides for STC. Virtually every bus passing those stations is at STC mere minutes later. I would love to see a survey of the riders that get off at those stations. Ask them if they think they'd rather have to transfer to the SRT and then at Kennedy, or would they rather stay on the bus to transfer directly to the subway at STC. I will bet good money on the results if anybody wants to do the survey.
There's also kd86's point about transit for Malvern and Centennial College suffering. Small price to pay for the rest of Scarborough benefitting. To start with, Centennial College is less than 10 minutes away on the Progress bus....a frequent service. And most students don't even arrive there from STC. Tons of students bus in from Malvern, up or down Markham Rd, etc. I fail to see how an SRT extension would help all those students who aren't arriving from STC. So why should we spend hundreds of millions to replace the Progress bus? That too for a routing that does not have stops at Markham Road or at the Milner Business Court. Next, can you tell me how an SRT extension and bus terminal at Progress and Sheppard is going to help Malvern? Wouldn't riders using the Nugget, Milner, Morningside or Neilson buses be better off just staying on the bus to STC? Or do you seriously expect all those riders to transfer at Sheppard just to transfer onto the SRT again? The moment they truncated the line at Sheppard, the whole "this will help Malvern" rationale went out the window. If the SRT goes to MTC then it connects to the Neilson, Nugget, Milner and Progress bus routes. If it ends at Progress, it touches one bus route: Progress. All that said, I hope that Malvern and Centennial will see some higher order transit at some point in the future. Personally, I think an at-grade Transit City style LRT along Progress and the corridor north of Sheppard would be a great idea. However, I would not put this before extending the Bloor-Danforth to STC.
It's a provincially designated urban growth centre (the only one in the 416 without a subway), and is slated to be the largest transit hub in the eastern GTA (again without subway access). Just more reasons the subway should terminate there.
All this is not an argument however to build the Sheppard subway to STC right away. Sheppard is not a transit priority for the city. It's not a priority for Scarborough...replacing the SRT is. It's unfortunate that Miller made it a priority and now we all the political fights we do, precisely because he sought to kill off suburban subway expansion with the SELRT rather than actually building on priority (Eglinton would have gone first if this was the case).
I do believe though that the Sheppard subway does need to built....even if it takes 15-20 years. Connecting STC to Downsview will utterly change travel patterns in the northern 416. I firmly believe that for car use to be seriously impacted, you have to provid real rapid transit. That can't come from LRTs which only really benefit the corridor they are on. Nobody on Finch East or Steeles East is going to travel down to Sheppard just to take the LRT to save 10 mins over the standard Sheppard East bus ride. Give them a subway there and this calculation will change.
As for the Mark II debate....that's worse than switching to LRT. Why would we want to operate an orphan fleet for another 30 years? We'll still have the transfer at Kennedy, the costs of retrofitting the existing line and an orphan fleet.
And who cares about losing stations? McCowan, Midland and Ellesmere are all glorified Kiss 'n Rides for STC. Virtually every bus passing those stations is at STC mere minutes later. I would love to see a survey of the riders that get off at those stations. Ask them if they think they'd rather have to transfer to the SRT and then at Kennedy, or would they rather stay on the bus to transfer directly to the subway at STC. I will bet good money on the results if anybody wants to do the survey.
There's also kd86's point about transit for Malvern and Centennial College suffering. Small price to pay for the rest of Scarborough benefitting. To start with, Centennial College is less than 10 minutes away on the Progress bus....a frequent service. And most students don't even arrive there from STC. Tons of students bus in from Malvern, up or down Markham Rd, etc. I fail to see how an SRT extension would help all those students who aren't arriving from STC. So why should we spend hundreds of millions to replace the Progress bus? That too for a routing that does not have stops at Markham Road or at the Milner Business Court. Next, can you tell me how an SRT extension and bus terminal at Progress and Sheppard is going to help Malvern? Wouldn't riders using the Nugget, Milner, Morningside or Neilson buses be better off just staying on the bus to STC? Or do you seriously expect all those riders to transfer at Sheppard just to transfer onto the SRT again? The moment they truncated the line at Sheppard, the whole "this will help Malvern" rationale went out the window. If the SRT goes to MTC then it connects to the Neilson, Nugget, Milner and Progress bus routes. If it ends at Progress, it touches one bus route: Progress. All that said, I hope that Malvern and Centennial will see some higher order transit at some point in the future. Personally, I think an at-grade Transit City style LRT along Progress and the corridor north of Sheppard would be a great idea. However, I would not put this before extending the Bloor-Danforth to STC.
Last edited: