Transit City Plan

[kEiThZ]

The GO Train is actually clear evidence that people don't want distantly spaced express stops. Almost all the GO Transit stations in Toronto have limited passenger numbers.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the lack of fare and service integration with the TTC (that would bring them to the GO stations) or the fact that GO costs a lot more than the TTC.

 

[gweed123]

The GO Train is actually clear evidence that people don't want distantly spaced express stops. Almost all the GO Transit stations in Toronto have limited passenger numbers. Give people a choice between TTC style local transit, and GO high speed express transit, and almost everyone seems to prefer the TTC.

If speed were the top priority, then Mimico and Long Branch stations would be packed and no one would take the Queen streetcar downtown.

There is also a price difference between the two modes, but if people aren't willing to pay $2 more for an express trip, then why should taxpayers spend billions to build express lines.

Interesting. How would you rationalize the success of the Beaches Express bus then? It operates relatively parallel to the Queen streetcar as well, does it not?

 

[Ansem]

The GO Train is actually clear evidence that people don't want distantly spaced express stops. Almost all the GO Transit stations in Toronto have limited passenger numbers. Give people a choice between TTC style local transit, and GO high speed express transit, and almost everyone seems to prefer the TTC.

If speed were the top priority, then Mimico and Long Branch stations would be packed and no one would take the Queen streetcar downtown.

There is also a price difference between the two modes, but if people aren't willing to pay $2 more for an express trip, then why should taxpayers spend billions to build express lines.

that's a really bad exemple.
maybe you can afford an extra 2$, not everyone can.

The only way what you're proposing would work would be to integrate all agencies into one and have a fare based on the zones

Like in Montreal
Cam 1=Montreal Island
Cam2=Montreal Island+Commuter Trains within the Island
Tram 3=Longueuil and Laval (they have subway sattions outside the island) + Montreal
Tram 4 to 8 (Suburbs)

Until then, don't be surprise that someone from Long Branch would rather take a streetcar then the GO to get to Union

 

[SimonP]

Interesting. How would you rationalize the success of the Beaches Express bus then? It operates relatively parallel to the Queen streetcar as well, does it not?

I live at Neville Park, and do take this bus sometimes, and it is another good example of the importance of local transit.

It's an express bus for only part of it's journey. In the Beaches it still stops every 200 to 300m and does the same thing downtown. No one needs to walk more than a couple blocks to get to their stop. People taking the bus have a 2 minute walk, and a 20 minute trip downtown, and people are willing to pay a double fare to save 15 to 20 minutes of the streetcar trip.

If the express only stopped at Vic Park, Wineva, and Woodbine, the ride might be five minutes shorter. But to save that five minutes passengers would have to walk an average of 10 minutes, or spend 10 minutes waiting and taking a connecting streetcar. Other than people who live near the three stops, it would make sense for most of them to simply stick with the streetcar and the bus would be far less popular.

The 143 is actually a lot like what the SELRT would have been. Short local spacing in the low density area along Sheppard, and then it dumps you onto an express subway heading downtown. People can walk to the stop by their house, and race at subway speeds over the middle part of their journey. Having to transfer modes is an added burden for the SELRT riders, but they get a full subway for the express portion rather than a bus going along Eastern and they don't have to pay double.

 

[Electrify]

I live at Neville Park, and do take this bus sometimes, and it is another good example of the importance of local transit.

It's an express bus for only part of it's journey. In the Beaches it still stops every 200 to 300m and does the same thing downtown. No one needs to walk more than a couple blocks to get to their stop. People taking the bus have a 2 minute walk, and a 20 minute trip downtown, and people are willing to pay a double fare to save 15 to 20 minutes of the streetcar trip.

If the express only stopped at Vic Park, Wineva, and Woodbine, the ride might be five minutes shorter. But to save that five minutes passengers would have to walk an average of 10 minutes, or spend 10 minutes waiting and taking a connecting streetcar. Other than people who live near the three stops, it would make sense for most of them to simply stick with the streetcar and the bus would be far less popular.

The 143 is actually a lot like what the SELRT would have been. Short local spacing in the low density area along Sheppard, and then it dumps you onto an express subway heading downtown. People can walk to the stop by their house, and race at subway speeds over the middle part of their journey. Having to transfer modes is an added burden for the SELRT riders, but they get a full subway for the express portion rather than a bus going along Eastern and they don't have to pay double.

We already have that. It's called the 84 Sheppard East bus. Why should we spend a billion dollars on it again?

EDIT: I can provide my own example too. The Yonge St Viva stops about every 1km, and has a local bus providing service in between. Not only do people walk the extra distance to the Viva stop, but if they see a local bus coming they are more likely to wait for the Viva if it is only a couple of minutes behind.

In addition, this has improved the performance of the local bus significantly. Before it would stop at virtually every local side street. However since people now tend to gather at the Viva stops, it stops far less and is a much more enjoyable ride.

Oh, and unlike the GO or the Beach Express bus, the Viva and local bus cost the same amount.

 

[unimaginative2]

There's also kd86's point about transit for Malvern and Centennial College suffering. Small price to pay for the rest of Scarborough benefitting. To start with, Centennial College is less than 10 minutes away on the Progress bus....a frequent service. And most students don't even arrive there from STC. Tons of students bus in from Malvern, up or down Markham Rd, etc. I fail to see how an SRT extension would help all those students who aren't arriving from STC. So why should we spend hundreds of millions to replace the Progress bus? That too for a routing that does not have stops at Markham Road or at the Milner Business Court. Next, can you tell me how an SRT extension and bus terminal at Progress and Sheppard is going to help Malvern? Wouldn't riders using the Nugget, Milner, Morningside or Neilson buses be better off just staying on the bus to STC? Or do you seriously expect all those riders to transfer at Sheppard just to transfer onto the SRT again? The moment they truncated the line at Sheppard, the whole "this will help Malvern" rationale went out the window. If the SRT goes to MTC then it connects to the Neilson, Nugget, Milner and Progress bus routes. If it ends at Progress, it touches one bus route: Progress. All that said, I hope that Malvern and Centennial will see some higher order transit at some point in the future. Personally, I think an at-grade Transit City style LRT along Progress and the corridor north of Sheppard would be a great idea. However, I would not put this before extending the Bloor-Danforth to STC.

Excellent points from someone who actually travels in Scarborough. I'd go so far as to say that the Centennial College RT extension would be less convenient than the existing Progress bus for college students since the bus goes right up to the main buildings while the RT station would be a rather dark and forested 10 minute walk.

From the perspective of actual riders rather than people looking at lines on a map, the subway extension to STC would be a massive expansion of rapid transit service in Scarborough.

 

[SimonP]

We already have that. It's called the 84 Sheppard East bus. Why should we spend a billion dollars on it again?

Higher capacity, lower operating costs, and improved rider experience. All of those are pretty good reasons even if it wasn't going to be faster, and with a separate right of way it will be.

 

[Electrify]

I firmly believe that for car use to be seriously impacted, you have to provid real rapid transit. That can't come from LRTs which only really benefit the corridor they are on. Nobody on Finch East or Steeles East is going to travel down to Sheppard just to take the LRT to save 10 mins over the standard Sheppard East bus ride. Give them a subway there and this calculation will change.

This is the thing which frustrates me the most about these discussions. LRT when done right IS real rapid transit. It can evenl maintain this even if running at grade along a right of way. When done right, LRT and subways are on virtually equal footings mentally, as both can provide the same level of fast and efficient service. Take a look at this thread (http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?12557-Videos-of-Light-Rail-RAPID-Transit&daysprune=-1) to see how it can be done right.

Thing is, most of Transit City is not like this. Its stop spacing is only slightly larger than local service. Sheppard East will be more like a European tramway: an enhanced local service rather than a true LRT that would be competitive with driving across Scarborough and Toronto.

 

[Electrify]

Higher capacity, lower operating costs, and improved rider experience. All of those are pretty good reasons even if it wasn't going to be faster, and with a separate right of way it will be.

Well, why not use articulated buses then? Higher capacity, lower operating costs, and improved rider experience. We can even put in bus lanes as well. All this can be done for a few hundred million, tops. Far less than the billion needed to build an extra long tramway.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Go Ford! Kill transit city and create a boondoogle of subway implementation. Just keep my property taxes low and as a downtown elitist I and all my investments in the centre of the city will prosper. The more traffic the better. The less well connected other neighbourhoods are the more desirable are mine.

Go with the flow everyone. We have been liberated from investing emotional capital on others!

 

[Ansem]

Higher capacity, lower operating costs, and improved rider experience. All of those are pretty good reasons even if it wasn't going to be faster, and with a separate right of way it will be.

You can already get this with reserve lanes and express buses...
This doesn't justify a billion dollars and people along SHeppard East don't want it.

Like I said in another thread,

You don't even live there and you don't use the corridor everyday. You look at the nuimbers and you draw your own conclusions based on these numbers ,ignoring the reality. That attitude got Ford elected (I'm not pro-Ford and I don't think he's that smart). One thing he did understood though is that people living in North York, Scarborough and Etobicoke are TIRED of being told by those living in "old/true Toronto" what's good for them.

Telling 1,2 Million people (Scarborough and North York) that rapid transit is too good for them. Telling them that where they live is irrelevent to the city is beyond ARROGANT and people are tired of it. STC and NYCC not being linked by Rapid transit is beyond retarded and any world class urbanist would be shaking is head in disbelief.

An analyst from Montreal explained Ford victory with this...Toronto wanted the amalgation and got the suburbs taxes so they could invest massively within Old Toronto. Politicians except Ford understood that even if most residential taxes came from the suburbs, so did the majority of the votes. People felt tired of sending all those taxes and felt ignored by City all. They voted for the only candidate in who they felt would best served their interests.

Being trapped in this stupid and childish (Toronto vs Suburbs) has mad politicians and many Torontonians missing the bigger picture here.
We're all Toronto now. All Torontonians and what's good for the city is making sure that all of our city Centers continues to grow. Very few cities in the world have multiple city centers and this is a crucial asset to this city. By giving multi-nationals more choice to establish their HQ make it less likely for them to go outside of Toronto. Doesn't matter which city centre they choose, it's still Toronto and the taxes are still going to Toronto.

Toronto has to stop thinking that Miller was somekind of Transit genius. SELRT was flawed for so many reasons
The reality is that you already have a subway line there
If there was nothing on Sheppard (AT ALL), I would support an LRT on the whole corridor.

Putting a streetcar there is beyond stupid...
On anothetr thread or this one,
I already quote the STM (Montreal transit) VP, saying that they studid BRT, LRT, Skytrain to extend the blue line eastbound (similar to Sheppard subway)
The STM came to the conclusion that forcing people to trasfer to another technology on the same route made no sense at all and it was counterproductive. You cant ask 50K riders to switch technology on the same route.
So Montreal must be fools then...
The city and the province are wayyyy more broke than we are... by the way...

Eglinton should come first along with subway to STC from Kennedy...

Sheppard can wait until funds are available later

 

[GraphicMatt]

An analyst from Montreal explained Ford victory with this...Toronto wanted the amalgation and got the suburbs taxes so they could invest massively within Old Toronto. Politicians except Ford understood that even if most residential taxes came from the suburbs, so did the majority of the votes. People felt tired of sending all those taxes and felt ignored by City all. They voted for the only candidate in who they felt would best served their interests.

Wow, dumb analyst. Every one of the old municipalities was opposed to amalgamation, including downtown.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Wow, dumb analyst. Every one of the old municipalities was opposed to amalgamation, including downtown.

Yep, amalgamation was forced upon us by the Harris government.

 

[Asterix]

This is probably nit-picking, but a few comments.

Telling 1,2 Million people (Scarborough and North York) that rapid transit is too good for them. Telling them that where they live is irrelevent to the city is beyond ARROGANT and people are tired of it.

Why does this line about rapid transit being "too good for them" continually get repeated? I don't believe anyone is saying that (except maybe Ford who wants to take away planned rapid transit from wide swaths of the city and leave them to slow buses for many years to come).

Simply saying that Transit City LRT is "not rapid transit" does not automatically make it so. Those lines are not designed to provide express high speed service from one corner of Scarborough to another corner of Etobicoke, but rather provide significantly better transit in major corridors than currently exist.

I'm rather at a loss for how one can argue that providing a dedicated ROW with signal priority and expected average travel speeds well above that for buses is not rapid transit. Just because it may still be a few km/h short of full subway doesn't mean it is not pretty rapid and efficient at moving fairly decent numbers of people.

Toronto has to stop thinking that Miller was somekind of Transit genius.

This is another one that puzzles me. It's not as if Miller unilaterally came up with the entire TC plan and routes and said "this is it". There have been years of design and planning work contributed by city staff, by TTC staff and by Metrolinx. Many of these people are actual experienced transit and urban planning experts.

But then to turn around and declare Ford's plan preferable? Does he have a history of being a Transit genius? If he himself didn't come up with the plans, then who did? Doug Ford? Mark Towhey (the guy who believes that there shouldn't be any public transit)? Seriously, who is the designated Transit genius that is backing this latest proposal and why should they be given more credibility than the years of work by several different expert organizations?

 

[Asterix]

Toronto wanted the amalgation and got the suburbs taxes so they could invest massively within Old Toronto.

Unless someone can provide the numbers to show otherwise, I would suspect that just like major cities like Toronto subsidize the less-populated spread out regions of Canada, the much higher density in downtown Toronto subsidizes the more sprawling suburbs when it comes to funds for roads or other city infrastructure (including fire station coverage).