Transit City Plan

[kEiThZ]

And if nothing gets built in the end and history repeats itself - I will be the one telling you "I told you so" - just saying.

AoD

And that would be your right. Ain't democracy great?

On a more serious note, I hope the parochialism stops. I'd rather not see Hudak in the Premier's chair.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't it is just the time taken to transfer to a bus at Kennedy and then the LRT at Don Mills, but also the running time of the bus in mixed traffic versus the LRT in its median (with projected average speed approaching 25km/h compared to well under 20km/h for the Eglinton East bus) between Kennedy and Don Mills. Would be significantly more than 2 - 3 minutes.

The distance is 6 km. That difference in speeds amounts to a difference in travel times of 3.6 mins (25kph vs. 20kph). At 15kph, the difference is 9.6 mins.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Hey. I'm not saying my views are necessarily gospel. But I would suggest that changing a fundamental transport planning tenet (that of connecting our urban centres) to using transit to spur development along avenues should have warranted more public debate than it received. Particularly, when you expect the public to dramatically alter travel and commute patterns to fit your fantasy network.

Actually, beyond the extraneous TC lines (which aren't really funded) is there really anything fundamentally different about the alignment with previous proposals? BTW, if you really want to talk about "my fantasy network" - the dominant communting pattern is core-periphery, NOT linking one suburban node to another - and before you argue the case of Sheppard, keep in mind that even in the even that case it is serving as a feeder for the Yonge line - and that's for a node with much more substantial employment opportunities than other "centres"

We went from a longstanding goal of incremental subway expansion connecting urban centres (a concept that most residents in this city understand implicitly) to the "avenues" concept overnight, with little public debate, other than among urbanists and transit geeks. When you do that, you run the risk of not carrying the public with you and I would daresay that's what happened.

Again, read above - you might want to posit it as all about the avenues - but is the broad strokes of the alignment fundamentally different from how subways are built in Toronto for the past 50 years? No.

Not only that, the order of priorities changed too. Can anybody explain why Sheppard East was the first corridor to go through? What is so pressing about Sheppard East that it's more important that the DRL or Eglinton or even the SRT replacement? Was that priority list made by an engineer or (more likely) by a politician?

Perhaps you can tell me, similiarly, how two subway lines for Scarborough is now "the priority" and the planning rationale for such.

And that would be your right. Ain't democracy great?

Democracy is no foil against stupidity. To expect it to serve as such is wishful thinking.

AoD

 

[Asterix]

But that demand is driven by the destination. Are you going to suggest that irrespective of routing the demand on Sheppard would be the same? Going to STC would not generate more ridership than going to the zoo?

I'll admit that I'm not that familiar with the Sheppard line, but it looks like you are trying to combine two issues into one.

Exact routing - the Zoo or STC? How do they compare in projected demand? Why was one picked over the other? This kind of decision looks to be political, right or wrong. I don't feel competent to defend either.

LRT or subway? - can you provide any legitimate cite that would show any routing (including STC) would generate demand worthy of subway and unable to be handled by LRT? I haven't seen any and claims that building it subway will somehow produce subway demand look to be someone's wishful thinking used to produce the answer they want.

 

[gweed123]

That might be possible, although there really isn't all that much room between the Eglinton bridge and Leslie in which to fit the portal. In addition to the extra tunneling (presumably cut and cover, costing more and causing more disruption through that stretch than building a new median), you'd also have the additional expense of an underground station. Again, all to save a few seconds at the lights at Leslie that could be more efficiently addressed by signal priority. Seems like several millions in gravy train to me.

But if it means the difference between a fully grade separated line, and a line that has an at-grade crossing at 1 point, I'd go with the entire grade separated line. I just fear that the signal priority won't be implemented properly, and that the ridership will exceed projected levels, and we'll have 4 car trainsets grinding to a halt at 1 intersection. The difference between a portal at Leslie and a portal just east of Don Mills is only 800m. Heck, you can even just trench it if you want to, you don't even have to tunnel it. Just take that intersection out of the equation.

I don't it is just the time taken to transfer to a bus at Kennedy and then the LRT at Don Mills, but also the running time of the bus in mixed traffic versus the LRT in its median (with projected average speed approaching 25km/h compared to well under 20km/h for the Eglinton East bus) between Kennedy and Don Mills. Would be significantly more than 2 - 3 minutes.

So while you are saving some money by cutting several kms of the line, you are adding expenses for the tunnel and station at Leslie and not providing improved transit for those traveling between Don Mills and Kennedy.

Is that 20 km/h for the entire Eglinton east bus, or for the portion east of Don Mills? I know the section from Laird to Yonge is slow as heck, but from what I've seen, the section east of Don Mills flows pretty well. If time savings is really such an issue, run an express bus from Kennedy to the Science Centre. It's not the end of the world.

Have you done the math for how much money you'd ultimately gain that can be spent towards your preferred schemes?

Just rough numbers on the amount saved from Don Mills to Kennedy. I haven't had the time to do a more detailed analysis on how much my alternative for Sheppard would cost, although the bill will be in the same ballpark for sure. I'll try and get some of those done tonight.

 

[Ed Drass]

Editorial chatter

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...to-show-respect-for-taxpayers/article1819618/

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/899337--rob-ford-challenges-loom-for-new-mayor

(Sun opined on Chief Blair it seems. Post editorials on Toronto issues are rare.)

 

[Asterix]

But if it means the difference between a fully grade separated line, and a line that has an at-grade crossing at 1 point, I'd go with the entire grade separated line. I just fear that the signal priority won't be implemented properly, and that the ridership will exceed projected levels, and we'll have 4 car trainsets grinding to a halt at 1 intersection. The difference between a portal at Leslie and a portal just east of Don Mills is only 800m. Heck, you can even just trench it if you want to, you don't even have to tunnel it. Just take that intersection out of the equation.

Reasonable goals, but again, it still strikes me as overkill to address a concern about signal priority being implemented at one three way intersection.

With respect to ridership, what levels are you fearing it will go to and based on what information? Can you show that this forecast demand would be unable to be handled with plenty of room to spare by the planned line?

How much would that trenching cost versus the surface median? All that is more cost and I am not convinced that there is a fundamental need for it.

Is that 20 km/h for the entire Eglinton east bus, or for the portion east of Don Mills?

Eglinton LRT panels state 16km/h for the Eglinton East bus. I realize the worst of it is west of Brentcliffe, so took a higher approximation for the area currently being discussed. Maybe it really goes even faster, approaching the speeds of the planned LRT, despite having to deal with private automobiles blocking its path.

Just rough numbers on the amount saved from Don Mills to Kennedy. I haven't had the time to do a more detailed analysis on how much my alternative for Sheppard would cost, although the bill will be in the same ballpark for sure. I'll try and get some of those done tonight.

Those numbers really would be relevant to this particular debate as to whether it is really worth amputating several kms from the Eglinton line.

 

[kEiThZ]

Actually, beyond the extraneous TC lines (which aren't really funded) is there really anything fundamentally different about the alignment with previous proposals?

But why leave out the extraneous lines? TC is a full plan. It has to be assessed in its entirety. And personally, while I'm negative on some bits (like Sheppard), I do think there was merit in some lines (like Finch or WW).

BTW, if you really want to talk about "my fantasy network" - the dominant communting pattern is core-periphery, NOT linking one suburban node to another - and before you argue the case of Sheppard, keep in mind that even in the even that case it is serving as a feeder for the Yonge line - and that's for a node with much more substantial employment opportunities than other "centres"

I actually agree with you. Which is why I would much rather they have built the DRL before anything else. And this is not just about Sheppard. Where's the rationale for LRT to Sheppard/Progress (skipping Markham and Milner along the way). The donminant commuting parttern maybe periphery-core, but we've always aimed to connect the cores to the subway network. Why no subway love for SCC?

Again, read above - you might want to posit it as all about the avenues - but is the broad strokes of the alignment fundamentally different from how subways are built in Toronto for the past 50 years? No.

I don't recall trams preceeding subway extensions to Downsview, Kipling or Kennedy or running on Sheppard before that line came about or on Eglinton (before that line was promised). What was true for Yonge and for Bloor-Danforth has not held true for the rest of the city for a very long time, and is unlikely to be applicable in the future.

Perhaps you can tell me, similiarly, how two subway lines for Scarborough is now "the priority" and the planning rationale for such.

Too bad, Ford's hand was forced by what's already in place. I agree with you. Nothing is really needed on Sheppard for now...at least when you compare the needs of the rest of the city. And you know you are being disingenuous by suggesting that extending the Bloor-Danforth to STC is a "new" subway line. The SRT is falling apart. It must be replaced. Most reasonable opninions would concede that this is a place where a subway extension makes sense....if only because it will avoid a massive transit disruption for years, in Scarborough.

Democracy is no foil against stupidity. To expect it to serve as such is wishful thinking.

AoD

That mentality can cut both ways. Just because you think something is sheer idiocy does not necessarily make it so. I would venture to suggest that the tens of thousands commuters forced to transfer at Kennedy everyday will always think it's boneheaded no matter what you do to improve that transfer. Are they all to be written off as ignorant morons?

 

[kEiThZ]

In any event, I think people are being way too pessimistic. I have my issues with Transit City....particularly the SELRT. But even I think Rob Ford isn't going to get very far here.

He has to come out swinging though. That's the only way to get any changes. But I don't think he's not amenable to compromises. So I am not going to get worked up until there's more concrete news on where things are going to go.

 

[gweed123]

Reasonable goals, but again, it still strikes me as overkill to address a concern about signal priority being implemented at one three way intersection.

Maybe, maybe not. From what I've seen of that intersection, it has some pretty bad sightlines, especially coming down Leslie. 1 accident at this intersection, and the whole "subway-like efficiency" of this line is shot. To me, it's a worthwhile investment so that it doesn't become a limiting factor when ridership levels increase and longer trains are required.

With respect to ridership, what levels are you fearing it will go to and based on what information? Can you show that this forecast demand would be unable to be handled with plenty of room to spare by the planned line?

It's not that I think the LRT won't be able to handle the capacity, I fear that it won't be able to handle the capacity with the proposed length of trains. I seriously think that longer trains will be required. No, I don't have any hard stats to back this up, but my gut tells me that this line will be more popular than people think.

How much would that trenching cost versus the surface median? All that is more cost and I am not convinced that there is a fundamental need for it.

My guess would be somewhere around double. But that's just a guess. If it is double, that's roughly an extra $70 million. Again, not a show-stopper. And the station at Don Mills is going to be underground anyways, isn't it?

Eglinton LRT panels state 16km/h for the Eglinton East bus. I realize the worst of it is west of Brentcliffe, so took a higher approximation for the area currently being discussed. Maybe it really goes even faster, approaching the speeds of the planned LRT, despite having to deal with private automobiles blocking its path.

If you run an express bus from Kennedy to Don Mills, it'll be even faster than the proposed LRT, especially if you put in queue jump lanes at key intersections. Much of Eglinton East of Don Mills also has diamond lanes (I believe they're carpool lanes, but I'm not 100% sure). Not quite as good as a dedicated lane, but still better than completely mixed traffic. I really don't think the speed will be an issue.

Those numbers really would be relevant to this particular debate as to whether it is really worth amputating several kms from the Eglinton line.

I'll get to work on them as soon as I can. Although they will be just estimates. I'll also post what per km cost assumptions I used to come up with them, so that it doesn't look like I'm pulling numbers out of my ass.

 

[Edward Skira]

I for one accept our new populist conservative overlords and the me first zeitgeist. I hope transit and all public services are fully privatized. As a downtown elitist I can rest assured that I live in one of the only areas in the country where incomes and densities combine to guarantee that service levels and options will be enhances through privatization.

That's the secret of being a downtown elitist. You get average middle-class people in suburban and small centres to vote in populist conservatives to bring down the very institutions that distribute resources to maintain their living standard. Under a private system you benefit because virtually all new investment will occur in the core of the city.

Bang on!

 

[GraphicMatt]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...r-is-over-ford-moves-transit-underground?bn=1

"The War on the Car is Over."

Yes, this sure does seem like a guy who is passionate about subways. Watch as he gets TC canceled, the province institutes large penalties and refuses to move their funding, and Ford shrugs his shoulders. Then Hudak gets elected and puts subways back on the table but funded through 'public-private partnerships' some time in the next two decades.

To be factual, though: He's asked Webster to present an alternative plan. Webster says he'll try to have something in six weeks. Ongoing work seems to be continuing as expected. Several councillors are ready to flip their shit over Ford acting like he can make this kind of decision unilaterally, since he totally can't.

He's been on the job for 12 hours.

 

[SimonP]

Update from the Star:

“We just had a meeting about subways,” Ford said regarding his chat with Webster.

“I just wanted to make it quite clear that he understood that Transit City’s over and the war on the car is over, and all new subway expansion is going underground. And that’s pretty well it,” Ford said.

“I just told him that everything moving forward is underground. And he accepted that. And I look forward to working with him.”

This could be read as Eglinton still going ahead, as long as it doesn't interfere with cars Ford might let it stand.

Ford, who wants to build a subway to the Scarborough Town Centre, said he didn’t specifically insist that ongoing work on the new Sheppard light rail line be stopped.

He doesn't actually have the power to stop this work, only the TTC board does and the full board hasn't met yet.

 

[Filip]

Update from the Star:



This could be read as Eglinton still going ahead, as long as it doesn't interfere with cars Ford might let it stand.



He doesn't actually have the power to stop this work, only the TTC board does and the full board hasn't met yet.

LOL! I love Ford.. He's harsh.

 

[gweed123]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...r-is-over-ford-moves-transit-underground?bn=1

"The War on the Car is Over."

Yes, this sure does seem like a guy who is passionate about subways. Watch as he gets TC canceled, the province institutes large penalties and refuses to move their funding, and Ford shrugs his shoulders. Then Hudak gets elected and puts subways back on the table but funded through 'public-private partnerships' some time in the next two decades.

To be factual, though: He's asked Webster to present an alternative plan. Webster says he'll try to have something in six weeks. Ongoing work seems to be continuing as expected. Several councillors are ready to flip their shit over Ford acting like he can make this kind of decision unilaterally, since he totally can't.

He's been on the job for 12 hours.

The message I took from what he said is "I want subways. Ball is in your court, Metrolinx. Make it work." Hopefully Metrolinx will come up with some sort of reasonable alternative that still makes Ford happy, but doesn't stop everything dead in its tracks. It's highly unlikely that the plan will stay the same as before, but it's just as unlikely that Ford will get everything he wants. The reality is somewhere in the middle. Where in the middle is it? We'll find out in about 6 weeks. You have to think that Metrolinx has been working on this since Ford got elected, probably even before that. They likely had 2 different contingency plans set up for both of the mayoral candidates. If this announcement today caught them by surprise, they wern't doing their jobs.