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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Express buses would be a great option on some routes. And more bus lanes. TTC goes on and on about how it doesn't work on King. Forget King ... I watch it every day on Don Mills Road. It mosly works. Buses moved in lane 1 past cars stuck in lane 2 and 3. There are a couple of trouble-spots, but for the most part it works. People stay out of the lanes, and you do see police pulling people over.

There's a lot that can be done without massive money. Look at how well rocket-like express buses work in Mississauga. Look at all the new express buses in Montreal. There are so many places in Toronto that a point-to-point express bus would do wonders.
 
It was only $300 million, at a time they also funded major infrastructure across the country. There is no such program available now ... beyond the $300 million. Which isn't even enough to extend Sheppard to Consumers Drive.

Again, you don't understand politics

Thanks for ignoring all my previous arguments...

you just reinforced the fact that you don't understand politics
 
The suburbanites, who are receiving this great gift from the demi-God Miller, are wholly indifferent. The city didn't lose, because the affected party doesn't care.

I expect it is suburban motorists who disliked surface transit most, and so are fine with ending TC. However I am curious how suburban transit riders view the choice, but I saw no exact polling on that. And are transit riders as powerful politically as motorists, in the way apartment dwellers are seen as having less clout compared to home-owners?

The motivation of downtowners to support TC, especially since it provides bupkiss to "the core", is interesting and I don't think it's been explored enough. More disposed to street rail transit; more likely to identify with suburban transit riders than motorists?

What if amalgamation (particularly loathed by downtowners) had not occurred -- would south-of-Bloors have felt as disposed to those in the "Metro Toronto" burbs?

And had DRL got momentum prior to TC ... that would have softened support for improvements in the suburbs. If it were a subway-to-subway debate of DRL vs. the ridership potential of Sheppard and Spadina subways...

And don't forget that TC has a real fiscal conservative appeal, as ironic as that seems in the new Ford world. Saving construction time and money convinced me early on. After the decades-long drought of worthy new transit routes, it feels worth the sacrifice of my subway fetish of younger years.

BTW, back in the day we did not have enough transit-savvy activists to fill a small meeting room. The idea that transit geeks and later, hordes of newspaper website trolls, could sustain a full-throat yelling match over trams v. metro -- was not imaginable. Interesting times indeed.

-Ed
 
Learning from the Past

If we look at History of Transit and the City of Toronto, politics and lack of funds has prevented Toronto from being a greater city then it is now.

Unless Ford realize there is very little money in the pot at this time from the government and if he wants subways, he will have nothing to show after his 4 years are up and riders still waiting for something.

What is provided since 1861, streetcars have been a transit generator as well having a lower operating cost.

1954 saw streetcar building a subway.

1966 saw Bloor Streetcar carrying 9,000 riders at peak time going to subway. Queen Street was seeing 7,200 riders and is still a streetcar.

2010, we see Sheppard carrying 2,500 riders on buses and wanting to go to subway that will have a higher operating cost of an LRT.

Other than between Yonge and Don Mills, there is next to no real development to support a subway for the next 50-100 years like North York Centre.

If the 1908 first subway was built as proposed, Toronto would look a lot different than it does today. That was a streetcar subway, just like the Eglinton LRT plan today.

The facts;
April 29 1909, the Evening Telegram News Paper printed an article about a subway to be built in Toronto. It reported a meeting between City Engineer Rust and the Kearney High-Speed Railway Company of London, England took place that would see Kearney High-Speed Railway Company willing to build and operate 2 underground lines at a cost of $1 million dollars per mile to build. The first Line would run up Yonge Street to Eglinton Avenue in the Town of North Toronto from Front Street. The 2nd line would run east from East Toronto along Queen Street to Dufferin Street then to Dundas and then to West Toronto. Once it was explained to Kearney High-Speed Railway Company that any franchise issued for these lines would end in 1921 when the City would take over all the franchise and run their own transit system, Kearney High-Speed Railway Company disappeared and was never heard again about from on their plan.

2nd Plan for 1909
The idea was put forth about build subways in Toronto. One subway would run north on Teraulay Street that ran from Queen Street to Greenville Street, now known as Bay Street after been change in 1922, angle north easterly to Yonge St and then to St Clair underground using streetcars that would continue north on Yonge Street. Stations would be at Front Street, City Hall, Dundas Street, Bloore Street, south of Davenport, north of Davenport, south of St. Clair Avenue and St. Clair Avenue.

The 2nd line would run along Queen Street underground from University Avenue in the west and Church Street in the east on the north side of Queen St. It would travel further west in an open cut to Niagara Street and then north to Bloore Street West, for the west end. The east end would travel east along Queen Street East to Carlaw in an open cut and embankments. It would then go north to Danforth Avenue at (?). Rest of Queen Street for both sides of these cuts and embankments would be at grade level. Station would be at Roncesvalles Avenue, Lansdowne Avenue, Dufferin Street, Dundas Street, Bathurst Street, Yonge Street, Sherbourne Avenue, Broadview Avenue, Pape Avenue, Coxwell Avenue.

On January 1st, 1910, the residents of the City of Toronto were asked to vote on this Subway referendum “Are you in favour of the City of Toronto applying to the legislature for power to construct and operate a municipal system of subway and surface street railway, subject to the approval of qualified ratepayer's”.

George R. Geary who did not support the subway plan was elected as mayor over the incumbent Horatio C. Hocken who did. Even thought the voters approved the voted for the subway plan by 19,268 to 10,697, Mayor George R. Geary refused to allow the building of the subway system.

1911
In the fall, council press forward with the subway development by issuing a tender for the construction tube structure made of concrete for a 3 mile long tunnel running from Bay and Front Street to Yonge Street and St Clair Avenue. The tender came in at $2.6 Million and allowing for track, equipment and the electrical system, it would be about $5.2 Million.

November 20 saw a follow up report prepared by E.L. Cousins, the Assistant City Engineer submitted to council stating that the diagonal lines would not be built without the corresponding roads. Since these roads could not be feasible, he recommended an alternate plan similar to James Forgie of the Jacobs Davies Company of New York. E.L. Cousins would see 2 east-west lines running along Queen Street and Bloore-Danforth from High Park in the west end to Broadview Avenue in the east where the lines would connect to each other forming a large loop. The Bloore line would see stations at Roncesvalles Avenue, Dovercourt, Bathurst Street, Yonge Street, Sherbourne Avenue, Broadview Avenue.

Based on E.L. Cousins idea for a subway on Bloore Street, Roland Caldwell Harris who became Commissioner of Public Works for Toronto in 1912 when Pubic works was created, cease that idea by incorporating that requirement in the design of the bridge over the Don Valley connecting Bloore Street and Danforth Avenue. There was great opposition to have this lower deck built when the bridge was built between 1913 to 1918. In the end, both Edmund W. Burke the designer of the Prince Edward Viaduct and Commissioner Harris were able to get their way with the building of the lower deck at the time of building the bridge. This foresight would come into play with the building of the Bloor-Danforth Subway in 1960's.

January 1st, 1912, the voters were again asked to vote for this subway plan. Based on the strong opposition of major of the newspapers and the unwillingness of the votes to deal with the extra taxes to build the subway, it was voted down by a 11,291 to 8,486 margin. Conflicting votes counts as one sources said's this number while another said 11,130 (no) to 7,697 (yes).

Bion J. Arnold suggested that if the City of Toronto could not come to some kind of agreement with Toronto Street Railways on their operation, that an underground streetcar line be built under Yonge Street. A loop would be built beneath Queen, Bay and Temperance Streets and run to St Clair Avenue. There would be a branch off the Yonge line at Bloore Street allowing for service to go east to Broadview. In 1915, a report was prepared on this plan and it was determent that there was no need for this subway.

1915
The city would again look at a subway on Yonge Street using Streetcars, but nothing comes out of it.
 
I expect it is suburban motorists who disliked surface transit most, and so are fine with ending TC. However I am curious how suburban transit riders view the choice ...
So am I ... Let's see if they get out and protest.

The only sign of protest I've seen so far is from those near the centre of the Eglinton line ... the most urban of those near Transit City lines.

Clearly such massive infrastructure was wasted on them.

Let them ride crowded buses! Build subways where there is the highest demand. DRL, Yonge.
 
While marketing TC, Miller et al. should have focused the message on short term gains and not long term goals - the message should have been about speed, reliability, and a better commute for today's transit riders. Redevelopment of the "Avenues" should have been an added bonus, and not the primary reason given for the entire project. Downtowners supported it because they were told it would make the suburbs more like downtown - people in the suburbs don't support it because no one, publicly, prioritized their needs. Besides, no one wants to see their neighbourhood completely transformed, even if that transformation and the project that's supposed to spur it on makes sense - this is as true for suburbanites as it is for downtowners (remember when/why downtown councillors got the original DRL scrapped?).

That said, a lot of the most vocal TC supporters I know live downtown now, but grew up in those suburban areas affected by the proposed TC network.
 
Shoot. This is bad news. In four years we will have jack all. All the EA and engineering work which has done will need to be thrown out. The Spadina York subway had EA started in 2005, completed 2006, funded early 2007, and at the end of 2010 is still having station open houses after finally signing the first big construction contract a week ago. A similar project on Sheppard would need 6 months of EA at minimum and 3 years of engineering and open houses. Of course the province will have no problem with it... their funding will be pushed out into 2013 and the money they were going to spend in 2015 can probably be put off until 2018. We will get an Eglinton connection to the airport in 2025 which means less competition for Metrolinx Blue 22. Funding wise it works out great for the province. Maybe by then Hudak will come in and say he agrees with the subway approach but like McGuinty did with Transit City decide to slow it down a bit. Maybe a Victoria Park extension by 2020 that reminds us of the wonderful one station Downsview extension that satisfied us for a decade.

Yet after 8 years all we have are a bunch of plans (lines on a map), a barely started but sorely needed construction project (Agincourt grade separation), and funding that could change just as quickly as it was gotten. In that time Mississauga has launced Mi-Way, York has launched VIVA (now onto it's second phase), and Brampton has launched Zum.
 
First of all, the idea that opposition to Transit City is based on lack of understanding due to poor communication by Miller's mayoralty is just another example of the "we know better than you" attitude that resulted in Ford's landslide election. People understand what TC is and they aren't any less sophisticated than you, the twentysomething pseudo-intellectual nouveau urbanite. Accept it.

Secondly, why can't TC just be a terrible, ill-thought-out plan that's completely inadequate for the city and its metro area? The city of Toronto is at the centre of a region of 6 million people, not even including millions more in the Greater Golden Horseshoe, and is the economic engine of the country. No matter how 'urban' its suburbs become, massive waves of people and goods have to flow through the core efficiently for the whole organism to survive and building something like TC is essentially going up against nature by stubbornly putting capillaries where arteries are clearly required. Many of you complain about an extra billion dollars here and there "out of the pot" as if government relies on a children's savings account at the corner bank, when according to recent studies the city is hemorrhaging at least 6 billion dollars EVERY YEAR due to congestion. How can we afford THAT?

Transit City isn't about urban vs. suburban, 416 vs. 905, liberal vs. conservative, sophisticated vs. simple-minded, or whatever other false dichotomy you people routinely call up in the service of idiocy. It's about putting the cart before the horse in a town that doesn't even have a road yet.
 
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No matter how 'urban' its suburbs become, massive waves of people and goods have to flow through the core efficiently for the whole organism to survive and building something like TC is essentially going up against nature by stubbornly putting capillaries where arteries are clearly required.

The problem when people make statements like this, is that it implies they somehow have more facts and information than the professionals (and not just the TTC). It is apparently claiming that all the forecast demands on the TC lines that are currently well within the range serviceable by LRT but at the low (or lower) end of subway ranges are apparently bogus and completely fudged to fit someone's politically driven agenda.

However, on the balance of probabilities, I (and I would hope many others) would certainly be more inclined to buy the numbers from the people who do that stuff for a living (and in the case of engineers, whose professional code of conduct would not permit them to ignore reality and pull numbers completely out of thing air).

TC lines will be a lot closer to subway level speeds (Bloor line with its closer stop spacings) than buses and will not be jammed beyond capacity like the 501.

Sure, we could cancel all those LRT plans and put our faith in subways, but given the magnitude of cost differences, you'd be getting a fraction of the 'network' for marginal benefit (and certainly no benefit for all those still relegated to needing the bus to get them to those shortened subways when they could have been going nearly twice as fast on an LRT line).

Given the history of transit (particularly subway) development in the last 50 years in Toronto, 'subway or nothing' advocates need to accept that canceling TC plans now in all likelihood will not bring them even that fraction of their desired subways, but rather absolutely nothing (beyond a bill for hundreds of millions of dollars in wasted work, broken contracts and endless years of future transit that won't be as good as it could have been).
 
So where are you going to build the extensive bus stations needed at the ends of the tunnels? Where and how are you going to store the subway cars?

Both Don Mills and Jane have pretty heavily used bus routes already. Finding a planning rationale for building terminals there will not be a stretch. Coincidentally, Eglinton Flats is a city-owned park, and the Science Centre parking lot is owned by the Province. Both would be excellent locations to put in a transfer facility (at least from a land utilization perspective, it will cost nothing to 'buy' the land, and very little to clear it to make it construction-ready). I seriously doubt the Science Centre would complain about losing a few parking spots, especially when they get a rapid transit stop at their door instead.

Who said I wanted subway cars? "Leave the Eglinton tunnel alone" means keep it as LRT. The only changes I would like to see are the eastern at-grade portion delayed, and termini stations built at both ends to allow for a decent transfer. And we really don't need a Warden-style massive bus terminal at both ends. Just a big enough bus loop to allow for multiple buses to be in the loop at the same time. Look at the recently built Terry Fox station in Kanata (west-end Ottawa). Something like that, or maybe just a touch bigger, would be adequate.
 
People understand what TC is and they aren't any less sophisticated than you, the twentysomething pseudo-intellectual nouveau urbanite. Accept it.

Actually no. On Joe's campaign, we spent a lot of time trumpeting Transit City. We had to stop, not because people weren't supporting it, but because no one knew what it was. Less than 10% of the city had any clear idea what the plan was.
 
From the Globe and Mail:

Rob Ford has confirmed that his first act as mayor will be to try to kill a provincially funded light-rail network for Toronto.

“There’s no secret,†Mr. Ford said. “I'm meeting with [TTC chief general manager] Gary Webster just to make sure him and I are on the same wavelength that Transit City is over. People do not want streetcars. We're going to start building subways and we're going to start right now.â€
 
We're going to start building subways and we're going to start right now.

yes, maybe if you're talking about sandwiches...

302px-Subway.svg.png
 

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