Brandon716
Senior Member
^^^Those are all light rail, but the cars look smaller individually than the Bombardier Flexity cars. I'd have to research the Boston system to see how big they are.
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Brandon716
Senior Member
Which is why I think Eglinton LRT can actually be a success, but if they do 3 cars per train and run it with high frequency, all I'm saying is that it could reach up to 400k passengers/day without problem. Maybe 500k is an overestimate, but you can use the C-Train and the Docklands Light Rail as an example of higher capacity systems.
Brandon716
Senior Member
I need to make a point I'm only talking about the difference between Flexity Trams and Flexity Light Rail vehicles. Both can legitimately be called "light rail" but the Flexity Light Rail vehicles do have larger capacity and larger physical car sizes than the trams. Comparing it to other systems, including Boston, is kind of irrelevant.
So everyone is right to call them both light rail, but if Eglinton LRT specifically uses the Flexity Light Rail specs I'm seeing, and its doing 3 cars per train it will have plenty of capacity. Although I question the source that told me it'll be 3 cars per train, he isn't probably as reliable as he thinks he is, but that's what I've been told.
So everyone is right to call them both light rail, but if Eglinton LRT specifically uses the Flexity Light Rail specs I'm seeing, and its doing 3 cars per train it will have plenty of capacity. Although I question the source that told me it'll be 3 cars per train, he isn't probably as reliable as he thinks he is, but that's what I've been told.
nfitz
Superstar
Streetcar or LRT? What's with these dumb questions? Kind of like asking if it's Automobile or car, taxi or cab ...
Brandon716
Senior Member
Fine, does anyone know if TC's Eglinton LRT line is using the bigger Light Rail Tram Streetcars or the smaller Light Rail Tram Streetcars?
I've heard they are using the bigger Light Rail Tram Streetcars.
I've heard they are using the bigger Light Rail Tram Streetcars.
Epi
Active Member
What exactly is the difference between 'tram' and 'light rail'? They are the same thing.
Light rail is the catch-all term for smaller trains which aren't passenger trains or subways (considered heavy rail). The other difference is that generally light rail is mixed in with the street and with traffic (i.e. at intersections), while heavy rail runs on it's own exclusive ROW, although some exclusive ROW rail operations are considered 'light rail' because they are simply just... smaller.
A train can have 1 segment, or have 2 segments or have 100 segments.
Brandon, there's no difference, you have to get over it.
Transit City from all indications from the TTC so far and from various internet commentators like Steve Munro is most likely going to be exactly the same across the city. The underground stations will run more or less like Queen's Quay station, and hopefully easily be convertible to subway.
Light rail is the catch-all term for smaller trains which aren't passenger trains or subways (considered heavy rail). The other difference is that generally light rail is mixed in with the street and with traffic (i.e. at intersections), while heavy rail runs on it's own exclusive ROW, although some exclusive ROW rail operations are considered 'light rail' because they are simply just... smaller.
A train can have 1 segment, or have 2 segments or have 100 segments.
Brandon, there's no difference, you have to get over it.
Transit City from all indications from the TTC so far and from various internet commentators like Steve Munro is most likely going to be exactly the same across the city. The underground stations will run more or less like Queen's Quay station, and hopefully easily be convertible to subway.
golodhendil
Active Member
You're exactly right, I have been meaning to ask about this 400-500K figure. As I have mentioned in the Eglinton thread before, Boston's Green Line, even with multiple branches, is already bursting at its seams. The last thing they can do to increase capacity (other than implementing signal priority and perhaps a more efficient signalling system in the subway/elevated, which will help a bit but not much) is to triple-up the cars, which they had done on occasion in the past but for some reason have been generally reluctant to do so. The Central Subway is way past its original intended due date to be converted to a heavy rail subway, but instead, recent renovations and expansions have destroyed the old measures put in place to facilitate the conversion and it is now nowhere in sight in the future.
Manila's "light rail" is really a fully grade-separated rapid transit line with a daily ridership of 730K. Their trains can hold more than 1000-1500 people, equivalent to a 4-5 car TTC subway train.
Epi
Active Member
None of this is absolutely decided yet, although the idea is since Bombardier won the contract, they now likely have first dibs at any Transit City contracts. Expect a train which looks basically exactly like the ones just ordered, except don't need to be customized for the legacy system's tight turns and steep grades.
Brandon, you should also watch this video on the TTC website:
http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Transit_city/index.jsp
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waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Finch west bus is 42,600... similar to light rail lines such as Tram 5 in Amsterdam, the Green Line in Los Angeles, better than LRT lines like LYNX or the Gold Line in LA, worse than LRT lines like NE in Calgary.
Subways with that kind of ridership are generally much shorter lines (Blue Line in Boston is similar, but half the length; Sheppard similar but 1/4 of the length)
Under TTC numbers this is true (Eglinton less than 200k), but Metrolinx numbers have the line at about 200-210k riders per day (estimate using average daily->yearly ratios)
golodhendil
Active Member
So the Green Line changed overnight from a streetcar/tramway system to an LRT system when they introduced the Boeing-Vertols, with minimal changes to the actual tracks, stations and signallings itself? How about the period when old trolleys, PCCs, BVs and the later Kinki-Sharyos were run at the same time? Was it a quasi-tramway-cum-LRT system?
The Green Line trains are each approximately 22 m x 2.5 m, usually coupled nowadays. That's longer, but comparably as wide as TTC's streetcars.
By bringing in the Portland LRT vs streetcar earlier and making general claims about LRT vs streetcar, you have already brought your own discussion beyond Flexity to the train technology in general.
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waterloowarrior
Senior Member
You are comparing one line (Eglinton) to entire LRT systems... Calgary's ridership in the NE line is around 60k; South and NW are 80-90k each (runs as one line). DLR is more like a separate system than a line (more importantly it's automated and grade separated, unlike Eglinton TC)
edit: also, Calgary's station platforms are now being upgraded for four-car trains
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Brandon716
Senior Member
That is because Portland's MAX system started with similar Bombardier trains that Transit City is considering, and they purchased later versions from Seimens, again in simliar format to what TC is considering. The two competitors that the TC heads were thinking of were Seimens and Bombardier.
The setup in Boston doesn't seem very similar to anything the TC planners have been considering.
BTW, thanks waterloo. You're right, I was comparing entire systems with one line, and I forgot to consider that. But at approx 32 km, Eglinton LRT will be quite a system onto itself.
golodhendil
Active Member
How so, and how does it affect your LRT vs tram debate?
Eug
Senior Member
Is the dedicated Eglinton LRT line going to be paved as well, to make it compatible with buses (as a backup)?
Rainforest
Senior Member
Good question. I think it will be difficult to make the central tunneled section of Eglinton suitable for buses, since a very powerful ventilation system would be needed to deal with their exhaust.
At the same time, a dual LRT/BRT design may be useful on some other TC lines, running on surface. These lines come to mind:
- Eglinton / Kingston Rd (aka "Scarborough-Malvern") LRT line could share the right-of-way with buses that operate off Kennedy subway and serve eastern Scarborough;
- Don Mills LRT north of Sheppard, and Jane LRT in Vaughan (north of VCC subway) could be dual LRT / BRT. That would help bus routes that run beyond the LRT's nothern terminus.
- It is possible that Sheppard E LRT will be deferred, while Scarborough RT will be converted to LRT and extended to Malvern Centre. If so, then the LRT section on Sheppard (from Markham Rd to Neilson) could be shared with Sheppard buses.
Btw, I heard that surface TC lines will be able to accommodate emergency vehicles.