Transit City Plan

[EnviroTO]

Does ANYONE know what the final design is going to be like? LOL

What do you mean? Bombardier released images of the vehicle that won the bid. The Transit City vehicles will be the same in appearance but will have slightly different technical requirements (i.e. another cab at the rear and possibly less powered wheels). There will be above ground sections which will look almost exactly like the new St.Clair ROW and some underground sections which will either be similar to the Queens Quay station and tunnel or like the Brussels premetro pictures. That is Transit City.

 

[Brandon716]

I'm not sure I know how to describe what i'm talking about.

There is a difference between the streetcar version of Flexity and the light rail version of Flexity.

This is clearly a tram:

The tram version of the vehicle is found here:
http://bombardier.com/en/transporta...vehicles/flexity-trams?docID=0901260d8001269c


Trams/Streetcars are slightly different from Flexity Light Rail, which is a modular, more expandable, much higher capacity version.

The Light Rail versions can be found here:
http://bombardier.com/en/transporta...ty-light-rail-vehicles?docID=0901260d800126b8

The Flexity Light Rail vehicles can be joined together and you can have 4 car trains for high passenger capacity. Trams are smaller and can't add nearly as many cars per train.

Again, I've heard conflicting reports. Certain reports are stating Eglinton will have multi-car capability and is more grade separated (modern light rail). St. Clair West looks like a tram, not a full fledged modern light rail system at a first glance, using those schematics.

If St Clair will be using Trams and Eglinton be using Light Rail, it makes sense. But it is confusing because the TC web site doesn't clarify a damn thing.

 

[EnviroTO]

The TTC versions just ordered are tram height but are powered on every wheel and are completely modular. Being powered on every wheel and modular means that they can be made any length by adding additional wheel segments and door segments to the tram. They are closest in similarity to the ones running in Brussels for STIB. Brussels currently runs two lengths of their model, the 3000 series and 4000 series. The 3000 series has 3 wheel segments and the 4000 series has 4. Much like the new subway cars where you can walk from the very front of the subway train to the back, the new tram will work the same way. The effort to add more segments to a tram is slightly more involved than the new subway but not by much.

 

[EnviroTO]

Video of the STIB Flexity 3000 and 4000
Video of the STIB Flexity starting at time 1:17

 

[CDL.TO]

I'm not sure I know how to describe what i'm talking about.

There is a difference between the streetcar version of Flexity and the light rail version of Flexity.

This is clearly a tram:

The tram version of the vehicle is found here:

Trams/Streetcars are slightly different from Flexity Light Rail, which is a modular, more expandable, much higher capacity version.

You seem to be trying to create a distinction between trams and light rail that simply does not exist. Trams ARE light rail. The two pictures you provide are basically the same, only one is boxier and one seems slightly larger (which might just be due to the photo). The distinction between what we usually call a "streetcar" and what we usually call "light rail" is an operational difference.

You can join trams together to form a train, and you can join light rail vehicles together to form a train (again, they're basically the same thing). There are light rail vehicles in some cities that have lower capacities than trams in other cities.

Basically, what is pictured in the last image on waterloowarrior's post is what Transit City is. On suburban arterials intersections are further apart, but you can picture what it will look like. Of course, where Eglinton is in a tunnel will be the exception to this.

I think Enviro hit the nail on the head:

There will be above ground sections which will look almost exactly like the new St.Clair ROW and some underground sections which will either be similar to the Queens Quay station and tunnel or like the Brussels premetro pictures. That is Transit City.

 

[CDL.TO]

Is this a streetcar/tram or is it a LRT?

Is this a streetcar/tram or is it a LRT?

Is this a streetcar/tram or is it a LRT?

Is this a streetcar/tram or is it a LRT?

Is this a streetcar/tram or is it a LRT?

 

[EnviroTO]

Trick question? Articulated railbus and streetcar weren't options.

 

[kettal]

They're the same car on what could very well be the same route. The point is that there's no difference between an LRT and a streetcar, but they look different in different terrains, or something.

 

[CDL.TO]

Trick question? Articulated railbus and streetcar weren't options.

I also forgot trolleycars and stadtbahn.

 

[waterloowarrior]

I'm compiling a chart of NorthAmerican/Euro transit lines and their daily/yearly ridership that I'll post once I get more numbers. I have 63 lines so far, dozens and dozens more to go.

So far the busiest LRT line is the Green Line in Boston with around 270k per day (although it has four different branches...). Brandon you've been saying in the last few pages the Eglinton Line will be able to support 400-500k passengers a day (with 3 car trains) but I haven't found any NA/European LRT lines yet with that ridership. Do you know some examples? Perhaps there are some in Asia (Manilla?), but I'm guessing they would be entirely grade separated.

Most light rail lines carry under 100k passengers an average weekday (around 30-32 mil / year) and many are well below this mark. Eglinton's projected ridership is higher than many subway lines (even in Europe), significantly busier than the Canada Line projections, and is somewhere between the Metropolitan Line and the Circle Line in London.

Sheppard's daily ridership compares favourably with a number of subway lines, especially given its size. If you look at ridership per KM it outperforms pretty much every LRT line in NA (at least from the places I have looked at so far). Like Ansem posted earlier, our "Stubway" would be a successful line in other many cities.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Just to add more confusion, the width of the vehicles could be different. Using the technical data from Bombardier, light rail vehicles (at least in Europe and Minneapolis) are 2.65 m wide, while trams/streetcars vary from 2.3 m to 2.65 m wide. Our CLRV/ALRV are 2.5 m wide (the same width as the Montréal Metro cars).
I do not know if the city track's devil strip (the space between two sets of tracks) could accommodate a 15 centimetre difference (7.5 centimetre overhang on each side), if they go with a 2.65 m vehicle for a Transit City LRV and stay with 2.5 m for a streetcar.
I remember seeing a police officer standing on the devil strip at the crossing between Eaton's and Simpson's downtown, with streetcars passing him on both sides. Wouldn't be able to do so if they go with wider vehicles.
I hope to be able see the technical data for both streetcars and Transit City light rail vehicles, soon.

 

[Brandon716]

The difference between trams and light rail are subtle, but real. Its all about capacity, trams don't have the modular design where you can join 4 train cars together and aren't usually platform based.

BTW CDL, all your photos are a tram because it doesn't have the connector to conjoin other train cars. Looking at this high-res image you can clearly see the piece that joins other train cars for doubling, tripling, or quadripling capacity:

http://bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BT-2442-CologneHR.jpg

No such feature exists on the smaller trams, which aren't as long per car.

http://bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BT-3488-Valencia-HR.jpg

As W.S. hinted at, its not just the conjoining feature, trams are literally smaller per vehicle usually speaking. I know in Portland the MAX Light Rail cars are noticably larger than the Portland Streetcar, as I used the system quite frequently.

Trams are different from Light Rail, even thought the differences can be subtle. If a tram could conjoin with many cars, it would be almost identical.

I'm sure there is a light rail vendor somewhere in the world that offers a smaller tram-style car that can conjoin to further blur the definition and differences, but we're talking about Bombardier now that we know its the vendor of choice for the TTC and Transit City.

The Bombardier Flexity Tram is both a smaller individual car and cannot conjoin in a modular design like Bombardier Flexity Light Rail vehicles.

And CDL, just so you know my personal preference was to have a TTC subway extension of Sheppard to Scarborough Centre and Pearson, an Eglinton TTC subway from Pearson to Kennedy, and a DRL subway built in full over Transit City.

But now that TC is a go, you have to find the silver lining in the fact that Light Rail isn't as bad as a streetcar, and it can do the job. I've accepted the fact its being built, and having the experience of living in Portland for a year I got familiar with the difference of light rail and trams quite well.

What is most frustrating is we don't have all the information. It appears they are building parts of Transit City, like St Clair, with a Tram model and they are building other parts, like Eglinton LRT, with full blown Light Rail.

The schematics I've seen for St Clair have one tram car like your photos represent, in a Euro-style street platform.

The information I'm getting for Eglinton LRT is that its using a higher grade platform system with modular, larger Light Rail vehicles. And I'm hearing from certain sources that Eglinton LRT will be able to handle 3 light rail vehicles per platform on all stations, which is not a small capacity system. That is heavier than the Docklands Light Rail system in London, only Eglinton will have the problem of crossing street intersections outside the tunnel.

But right now the TC designers haven't confirmed enough for us to get the final word, which is arguably the most frustrating part of TC. They aren't spitting out enough specs on the system as of yet.

 

[golodhendil]

So we're back to this LRT/tram definition debate after 20 pages. Let me add to CDL.TO's examples:

LRT/tram?

LRT/tram?

LRT/tram?

LRT/tram?

LRT/tram?

LRT/tram?

LRT/tram/subway??

LRT/tram/el??

*edit: oh and since we're now talking about car size and conjoinability, let's throw in some older pics at the same locations:

Oh look, a conjoined PCC streetcar:

How about triple-conjoined PCCs:

And a PCC pair running in a completely separate ROW:

ooo how about this, a PCC coupled to an old trolley running in a subway:

and a triple-conjoined PCC train on the old El:

 

[kettal]

I'm compiling a chart of NorthAmerican/Euro transit lines and their daily/yearly ridership that I'll post once I get more numbers. I have 63 lines so far, dozens and dozens more to go.

So far the busiest LRT line is the Green Line in Boston with around 270k per day (although it has four different branches...). Brandon you've been saying in the last few pages the Eglinton Line will be able to support 400-500k passengers a day (with 3 car trains) but I haven't found any NA/European LRT lines yet with that ridership. Do you know some examples? Perhaps there are some in Asia (Manilla?), but I'm guessing they would be entirely grade separated.

Most light rail lines carry under 100k passengers an average weekday (around 30-32 mil / year) and many are well below this mark. Eglinton's projected ridership is higher than many subway lines (even in Europe), significantly busier than the Canada Line projections, and is somewhere between the Metropolitan Line and the Circle Line in London.

Sheppard's daily ridership compares favourably with a number of subway lines, especially given its size. If you look at ridership per KM it outperforms pretty much every LRT line in NA (at least from the places I have looked at so far). Like Ansem posted earlier, our "Stubway" would be a successful line in other many cities.

Toronto's buses are more utilized than many cities subways. Finch bus has a higher ridership than many of these places you compare us to.

The Eglinton daily demand is projected to be less than 200k. I'm not sure what numbers you were expecting it to be??

 

[EnviroTO]

The difference between trams and light rail are subtle, but real. Its all about capacity, trams don't have the modular design where you can join 4 train cars together and aren't usually platform based.

I don't see any difference. What would Brussels Flexity be? It currently exists with 3 wheel segments and 4 wheel segments but could be made 5 or more. If comes with three types of modules (A - cab segments, B - door segments, and C - wheel segments). If they wanted to the could add a coupler on the end and run two together.

The tram could be
A=B=C=B=A or A=B=C=B=C=B=A or A=B=C=B=C=B=C=B=A...
and you can couple them
A=B=C=B=A-A=B=C=B=A

You can't do A=B=A though... it would tip over.

Coupling is useful if you want to be able to switch lengths quickly but prevents walking through the whole tram and carrys extra cabs which is inefficient. Adding modules is something that is more long term and done in the shop.