News   Nov 01, 2024
 2.1K     14 
News   Nov 01, 2024
 2.6K     3 
News   Nov 01, 2024
 772     0 

Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Scarborough don't want TC

North York dont want TC

Etobicoke don't want TC

Telling almost 2 million people that they should shut up and just swallow "Transit City" is a dictatorship.

How about if they were told that they don't get any new, needed transit since the mandate they supposedly gave the mayor says to only do major transit projects in one corner of the city?

Do you really think all those people that would have greatly benefited from SELRT, Eglinton and Finch West were asked if they wanted TC or a subway in Scarborough? Do you really think that if they were asked that question, they would say "subways in Scarborough!"?

That is reality. There is not the money to do anything more than a small section of subway in Scarborough, so supporting that explicitly means taking away much needed transit improvement for large swaths of the city.

If you can show me that all those people explicitly endorse that plan, then I'll accept your point. But any rational look at the options strongly suggest you won't find such a groundswell of support in response to that question.
 
Smitherman would not have halted Transit City - he proposed some alterations and additional subway extensions beyond Transit City.

Ford was anti Transit City, but to chalk that up as why he won is pretty dumb. It'd be like saying Rob Ford's victory means that Torontonians have all voted in favour of the city hiring 100 more police officers.
 
It's about what the people want and not councilors.

I'm pretty sure the majority of regular TTC users in Etobicoke would choose Transit City over a subway in Scarborough. However, the average person living in Etobicoke is not a regular TTC user and for people who aren't regular users more subways sounds much better. People will always choose the ultimate option when given a choice... it is only when they are told it would cost more in taxes or when they are regular users of the existing and fail to see an improvement that they would choose a lesser option. Given an option of bus to the airport, DMU, EMU, or maglev air link to Pearson I would definitely choose maglev. Only once I know the costs to me and the convenience to me would I be able to know whether or not I would use each option. A person living in Scarborough thinking a maglev rail-link is going to be better for him than the $65 air limo to Pearson for his family is going to end up being disappointed that the maglev air-link isn't convenient for him and is far more expensive... but until that analysis is done he would likely be supportive of a maglev air-link. Likewise subways sound great until you realize that the huge expense isn't going to do anything to solve the major transportation problems that exist in the city. The money will have been spent to stop the name calling for the poor routes called "stubway" and "white elephant", but it is the riders that matter, not the routes.
 
How about if they were told that they don't get any new, needed transit since the mandate they supposedly gave the mayor says to only do major transit projects in one corner of the city?.

The province already pushed back Don Mills, Jane, Waterfront LRT and cut Finch and Eglinton so bad that even Miller thought that the new revised version of Transit City sucked
http://www.torontolife.com/daily/in...cut-so-bad-even-miller-thinks-his-babys-ugly/
Remember that?

When the creator no longer believe in its "baby", kind of hard to blame people to get skeptical about it...
Wouldn't you agree?

Do you really think all those people that would have greatly benefited from SELRT, Eglinton and Finch West were asked if they wanted TC or a subway in Scarborough? Do you really think that if they were asked that question, they would say "subways in Scarborough!"?.

Beneficial?
SELRT
-Maintaining the Transfer at Don Mills
-Extra transfer at McCowan to go to STC
-Businesses don't want it
-People don't want it

From an Urbanism point of view, when you have 2 growing town Centers within the same city, not connecting them by Rapid Transit is the dumbest thing you could do. The potential here is huge and I don't know if I should be amused or in shock that people don't see it...

I actually support Eglinton underground section as an LRT although it should be from Jane to Don Mills

Finch West is unfortunate but they should start by having a Express branch with reserve lanes before going straight to LRT


That is reality. There is not the money to do anything more than a small section of subway in Scarborough, so supporting that explicitly means taking away much needed transit improvement for large swaths of the city..

It shows that you haven't read my previous post.
I actually placed Sheppard behind Eglinton and B-D to STC
I don't see what's stopping the city from budgeting 70M or more per years to expand an LRT system and build Finch West (Post Ford of course)


If you can show me that all those people explicitly endorse that plan, then I'll accept your point. But any rational look at the options strongly suggest you won't find such a groundswell of support in response to that question.

Specifically to the mayoral campaign, fair enough
but it the majority of the city wants more subway and that's a fact
 
It is true that Ford was not voted in solely due to his wanting to cancel TC. Some may say that he wasn't given that particular mandate which is true but conversely Miller wasn't voted in because he brought it in.
Some want a referendum so TC could hopefully move forward but where was Miller's referendum? He said it would work well and then should just go ahead and if you oppose then he would call you "anti-transit" or "pro-car". Even to this day he still has yet to even contemplate the notion that it's not just that people want subways but also they just don't want TC. I've always found it interesting how he "knows what's best for the city" but completely ignores the desperately needed DRL.
Many supporters of TC keep saying that he average person just doesn't understand the system and how it will work. How insulting. It never occurs to the mandarins at City Hall that the people know exactly how it will operate and don't want it.
Transit City is completely dead but not due to Ford but rather due to the citizens clearly stating that they don't want. Yes, subways are more expensive, especially when the TTC won't even consider any elevation, but people want them and when it's all said and done it's their money.
 
It is true that Ford was not voted in solely due to his wanting to cancel TC. Some may say that he wasn't given that particular mandate which is true but conversely Miller wasn't voted in because he brought it in.
Some want a referendum so TC could hopefully move forward but where was Miller's referendum?

I agree with this part of what you wrote.
 
Even to this day he still has yet to even contemplate the notion that it's not just that people want subways but also they just don't want TC.

I'm pretty sure he understands there are people who don't want Transit City.

I've always found it interesting how he "knows what's best for the city" but completely ignores the desperately needed DRL.

He didn't ignore it. Under him the study started and was made a pre-cursor to any Yonge extension. Transit City was designed to be a short term plan to touch every part of the city by 2020. It didn't touch station improvements, there was a different plan for that. It didn't touch bus service improvements, there was a different plan for that. It didn't touch Kingston Rd BRT, there was a different plan for that. It didn't touch Waterfront East, there was a different plan for that. Transit City was a "transit across the city" plan... not the "TTC 25 year plan".

Many supporters of TC keep saying that he average person just doesn't understand the system and how it will work. How insulting. It never occurs to the mandarins at City Hall that the people know exactly how it will operate and don't want it.

The average person DOESN'T understand the system. The number of times the word "streetcars", "St.Clair", "Spadina", and "removal of traffic lanes" is mentioned proves it. The average citizen in Toronto hasn't seen pre-metro nor a good implementation of on street LRT in their lifetime. They have seen slow 30 year old streetcars lumbering along roads with frequent traffic lights, often in mixed traffic.

Transit City is completely dead but not due to Ford but rather due to the citizens clearly stating that they don't want. Yes, subways are more expensive, especially when the TTC won't even consider any elevation, but people want them and when it's all said and done it's their money.

But the fact is most people won't get subways under Ford either. Newsflash to people in Etobicoke, and along Eglinton... you aren't getting a subway if Ford's plan is implemented. You get a bus and it is less expensive than a subway. These people might not want buses... but they aren't getting a subway. The real choice is LRT or bus... has that option really been presented to all those people? It was presented to councillors that wanted a subway but when presented with the bus or LRT option most came around.
 
A distinction must be made between street-median light rail vs. express light rail running in CN/CP corridors, hydro ROWs, etc. I have no problem with a Finch Hydro ROW light rail line, but spending billions on *street-median* LRT in Toronto is a waste. Yes, you're serving more people than a subway ever could, but the actual improvement in service over buses in nominal. Diluting scarce transit dollars over a wide area just to serve more people *slightly better* than buses makes no sense. If that's what we want to do because we can't afford subways, then we're better off doing NOTHING and diverting that money to heathcare instead.

The bulk of the traffic congestion in the outer-416 is on the 400 series highways, and that means we need more long-haul express transit services, not local light rail routes. Metrolinx needs to get off its derriere and address that once and for all with a real plan -- we don't need mayors from High Park telling us how transit in the suburbs should work.
 
Last edited:
I highly doubt that the majority of people living along Eglinton want Sheppard subway and nothing build on Eglinton.

1)
Sure. But, Sheppard was started, wasn't it? So there is precedent for it to be finished.
We can't start building a little here a little there, some over here, a bit more up there... such planning results in nothing getting done.



Extending Sheppard subway has merit long-term, but the immediate benefit of going from buses to grade-separate transit will be much greater on Eglinton, since its central parts are much more congested than Sheppard east of Don Mills.

Sure. But again, as stated in 1).


If they continue with Eglinton and just re-purpose the Sheppard funding from SELRT to a short subway extension (to Vic Park or Warden), this is kind of acceptable.

Any metro expansion is well worth it.
Miller's dictatorship preferred nothing. So, now people are enthusiastic.



If they halt Eglinton altogether and send all funds to Sheppard, that will be outright stupid; both because central Eglinton needs grade-separate transit more urgently, and because Eglinton design is much more advanced.

I do not agree here. An Eglinton metro is a long term thing. I do not expect it to be totally shunned.
Besides, there is money do some tunneling on both Eglinton and Sheppard. Both are urgent because they are under threat from the tram fanatics.
I think that the fastest thing would be an extension to sheppard - however long it may be. Ford supports that. Lets hope he livs up to that. I feel that this is the most urgent because it is under the most threat from the trams.

Any metro expansion is outright great! I see sheppard being the fastest thing that I can hope to see. So I am happy. I don't care if it is extended 3 km or 6 km though.

And man, if anyone wants to see more subways that person would be me. So don't repurpose this discussion from Subway vs LRT to Subway vs Subway - arguing much about where what will go will only deter from building it, no? We all need to express support for extending Sheppard. And other such extensions too of course. But there seems to be momentum for this Sheppard extension. So lets cheer for it, regardless of how long it is. :D


Most likely Metrolinx will not deny Ford outright, but will demand a City Council vote and a new Sheppard Subway EA before committing funds to Sheppard Subway extension. That means no construction for a couple of years at least; and by the time the EA is ready, we might see a new provincial government whose priorities are very remote from transit.

Well they made an EA before. They can use it, no? It's not hard to make an EA. We make mock EAs in my Environmental Planning class. It's relatively simple stuff.
I think it is fair to say that any government would support transit expansion. It's more apparent that the cost of waiting is too high.



It depends on what you define as automobile dependence. If it means the number of people commuting on transit, then the Sheppard Subway extension would be a reasonable target. If it means the number of people owning cars, then a subway line Downtown would be a better use of funds.

Well, what I find to be quite significant about sheppard is that it is not a downtown centric route. It thus provides more opportunities for people.



Let's not get mixed up with the technical term "Rapid Transit", which refers to a grade separated electric railway, and the speed of transit.

I do mean that technical term.



Fun fact: the Los Angeles Green Line has an average speed 15km/h faster than any of our subway lines, and it uses "light rail vehicles", in other words, trams.
...
Other technologies can be competitive as well.

Are they fully grade separated? Do they stop at red lights?

Tram fanatics do not recognize that BRT is much cheaper than new tramways. They holler about cost but themselves do not want to reduce cost.



Yes. It does bother me how a minority headed by Rob Ford is imposing his plan on a majority who would rather have a network of fast transit than one "rapid transit" line to a mall.

Well that's how things work in the modern era. Comprehensive plans simply fall through. So incremental methods work out. Some here some there, bit by bit and it gets done.
But the pauses between construction are too long. A comprehensive plan is nice, but it takes longer and can fail more easily. Incremental planning is more practical.



However, for whatever reasons and for whoever you want to blame, that immediate ship has sailed and we have a city-wide LRT plan on the table with promised funding from the province and even a chip-in from the Feds that is ready to start actual construction essentially immediately.

The ship went down a wrong route.
Funding can be changed. It's better to fund something that is better than to fund something that's worse. You think they'll just let those funds disappear? There is something called reallocation.



We certainly have no guarantee that the province or Metrolinx will play ball with the back-of-the-napkin proposal the TTC is supposed to whip up in six weeks to fit Ford's pronouncement of canceling TC and switching to subways and the provincial treasury would probably love to be able to take back a few billion dollars to help with the provincial deficit.

TC is a VERY costly idea. You forget that. What was the plan, 20 billion dollars for it all total or something ridiculous like that?
There is always going to be demand for transit money. TC or no TC, such demands are always going to be there. Even after TC. So they'll be coughing up money for transit expansion regardless of what it is.



Who is trying to ignore it? SELRT will be servicing far more of the corridor than any affordable subway and will provide service speeds far closer to subway than to the existing buses.

Nah, SELRT speeds are like 20 km an hour I think. Kinda slow. The S in SELRT stands for Snail.
If you are so desperate for money just go for a BRT line. The cost argument that the tram fanatics have always fails.



The previously planned Eglinton subway was going to be a short stubway from the Allen out to Weston. Demand projections for 2031 aren't even half of what would be required to justify full subway and the advantage of the LRT line is that it can operate as a subway in the middle and as a much cheaper surface runner on either side while still providing near subway level speeds.

BRT can do what LRT can do for less money.

Projections are CRAP. I thought I explained the flaw with them. They take current situations and expand them just as if more population was being added. They do not take into consideration land use changes. For that they fail.





I've spent too much time. ttyl
 
The province already pushed back Don Mills, Jane, Waterfront LRT and cut Finch and Eglinton so bad that even Miller thought that the new revised version of Transit City sucked
http://www.torontolife.com/daily/in...cut-so-bad-even-miller-thinks-his-babys-ugly/
Remember that?

So of course you believe that by going back to the design and planning stage for another couple of years and the likely possibility of a new Conservative Premier coming in, the province won't even think of pulling the rest of the funding for some subway scheme that won't have started construction?

You need to be consistent. Either there is a real threat the province will cancel any project that hasn't made a significant amount of construction, or it won't. TC is shovel ready. The sooner those shovels go in the ground, the harder it will be to pull the funds when someone else comes in and decides largely empty subways are a waste of money.

I actually support Eglinton underground section as an LRT although it should be from Jane to Don Mills

a) That would include a lot more money to tunnel under two more ravines and water courses.

b) You want to take away higher order transit from those east of Don Mills or west of Jane?

Finch West is unfortunate but they should start by having a Express branch with reserve lanes before going straight to LRT

Again, you need to be consistent. One of Ford's fundamental problems with TC is the belief that it takes away lanes of traffic from cars (it doesn't, but then one can't expect him to have actually looked at the plans). If you want to make existing lanes reserve lanes, then you are going to have issues with the new mayor. Otherwise you are committing yourself to doing much of the TC construction work (to add new lanes) without getting the benefit of smoother, faster, transit.

I don't see what's stopping the city from budgeting 70M or more per years to expand an LRT system and build Finch West (Post Ford of course)

$70M a year will get you little more than 1km of LRT. Ford wants close to 10km of subway build by 2015 and you think 1km/year of LRT construction is a reasonable pace? Think of how long it will take to build anything like a useful network.

Are you going to build your carhouse in year one? Otherwise for years and years you will have an unfinished few kms of LRT taking up space but not being used because you haven't extended your line out to the planned carhouse. Then you will need to take several years off of building LRT lines so you can devote your $70M/year to building that carhouse.

Yeah, that sounds like a reasonable way to build transit.

but it the majority of the city wants more subway and that's a fact

The majority of the city can be found to be wanting personal teleportation or $1 million in tax refunds. But we both know those are not fiscally possible.

Just about anyone on this thread will tell you that if offered the straight up choice, they'd take subway over LRT. But that is not the realistic question.

The true question is do you want subways and a big increase in your taxes or an affordable LRT network or an affordable subway that isn't fully used and serves only a small segment of the city?

Show me what the city wants with respect to that question.
 
Well they made an EA before. They can use it, no? It's not hard to make an EA. We make mock EAs in my Environmental Planning class. It's relatively simple stuff.
I think it is fair to say that any government would support transit expansion. It's more apparent that the cost of waiting is too high.

Because of course the real world works exactly the same way as idealized classroom settings. Can you tell me how long the EAs took for TC or for the Vaughan subway extension?

Well, what I find to be quite significant about sheppard is that it is not a downtown centric route. It thus provides more opportunities for people.

Guess what. TC is not a downtown centric plan. In fact, it specifically ignores downtown. It thus provides more opportunities for people than any subway scheme in play.

Tram fanatics do not recognize that BRT is much cheaper than new tramways. They holler about cost but themselves do not want to reduce cost.

Interesting that despite pretty well every pro-TC poster saying they also want subways in some shape or form, the anti-crowd still likes to use terms like 'tram fanatic' or LRTista as if by simply blindly using them, it somehow makes their argument more valid.

Ford is not going to go for BRT. He has repeatedly said the war on the car is over and he will not take away car lanes for anything, whether it is LRT, streetcars or BRT.

The ship went down a wrong route.
Funding can be changed. It's better to fund something that is better than to fund something that's worse. You think they'll just let those funds disappear? There is something called reallocation.

Seriously, you really think that a new Conservative government wouldn't jump at the chance to take even more funding money off the table is Toronto is still messing around with designs, plans and wishlists? Those funds wouldn't disappear, they'd just get reallocated to the provincial budget and Toronto will be left with nothing but more dreams unfilled.

TC is a VERY costly idea. You forget that. What was the plan, 20 billion dollars for it all total or something ridiculous like that?

TC as a whole was a city-wide network plan that would greatly improve the transit options to large chunks of vastly underserved inner subburbs. That price tag not only included well over 100km of lines, but also the vehicles to run on them and the carhouses to store/maintain them.

There is always going to be demand for transit money. TC or no TC, such demands are always going to be there. Even after TC. So they'll be coughing up money for transit expansion regardless of what it is.

Yes there will always be demand for transit money. No, there is no guarantee that any new provincial government will be coughing up money for transit expansion. How long before TC was the last cough? How long before that?

Nah, SELRT speeds are like 20 km an hour I think. Kinda slow.

You think? Don't you have a cite? How does the number compare to how fast you think the subway operates?

BRT can do what LRT can do for less money.

And again, with Ford, BRT is not on the table. You can live with 'clean' buses in mixed traffic. It's good enough for the people going to the slots at Woodbine, so it'll be good enough for you.

Projections are CRAP. I thought I explained the flaw with them. They take current situations and expand them just as if more population was being added. They do not take into consideration land use changes. For that they fail.

You actually are familiar with all the variables and plans taken into account when the demand projections were derived? You are more familiar with the city plans going forward than the planners and can justifiably demonstrate their numbers are off by a factor of two or more?

Reminds me of the line that it is really amazing how everyone who knows how to run the country is driving taxis or cutting hair.
 
Sure. But, Sheppard was started, wasn't it? So there is precedent for it to be finished.

Sheppard should never have been started as a subway in the first place if there had been proper prioritization and if it had been designed with budget constraints and capacity requirements in mind. If someone had got started an Iqaluit subway line that was supposed to have 5 stations but only got 3 and was never really required in the first place... does that make it a priority to complete as a subway?

We can't start building a little here a little there, some over here, a bit more up there... such planning results in nothing getting done.

Sometimes building a little here and there is more valuable than getting something done if the piece you get done does not match the primary travel pattern of transit users in the area and will never warrant what was built. Toronto's central core is served by a single subway today at population 2.5M in the city proper. What would the population of Toronto be that what provides enough capacity to serve downtown (with its thin streets and 4-6 lane freeway) would be required to serve SCC or North York Centre (with their 16 lane freeway and wide streets)?
 

Back
Top