Transit City Plan

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Mr Fox can you please stop your diatribes about peak oild? They're getting so often now I just skip over your posts now. It's tiring and borders on spamming. I'm not disagreeing on it one way or the other, it's just so redundant.

+1

 

[GenerationW]

He'll never stop.

In other news, oil closed today below $91. Happy days are here again!!!

 

[Paleo]

Firstly, I think its bizarre that Torontonians think it's out-of-left-field for transit oriented developments to help pay the cost of a rapid transit system.

Typically, "future" stations can be planed for brownfield or greenfield sites where large transit oriented developments can take place. Developers can and do pay for the costs of constructing stations to serve their developments - BUT- of course they won't be the grandiose multi-level $100M stations you now see being built on the Spadina Line extension.
If Eglinton is built out with a medum capacity metro (or LRT in exclusive RoW) with relatively short (but frequent) automated trains, then station construction costs can be contained (especially for elevated stations) and developers can make the economics work.

Just like YVR paid for all of the stations and the guideway of the branch to Vancouver's airport, is York University paying for (or at least contributing to) its new station (i.e. even donating land) - and if not, why not? If Scarborough Town Centre wants the new Sheppard subway station at the mall rather than on the street at the edge of the parking lot or half a block away - it should have to pay for it. In Richmond BC, Concord Pacific and another developer (maybe Pinnacle) will contribute to the cost of the future Capstan Station on the Canada Line when they develop their lands next door.

There's obviously an advanatge for adjacent developments to link directly to a metro station - look at the PATH system downtown. The other classic example in TO is Yorkdale. The mall built out to the station to connect the mall to the station. If that were a new line, that connection could have been negotiated at the time of construction and the mall could have contributed to the cost of station construction to allow for a more seamless connection.

Rubbish. The mall was built there because of the highways. The subway went there because of it. Now a generation of smarter people realize that the Spadina subway would have been 10x more successful if it went under Dufferin or Bathurst.

 

[LAz]

What about the rest of us? We need Transit City today!

Don't worry, papa's building something more advanced than this planning for yesterday tram city approach.
We need subways. Just imagine how much faster a subway from STC to Downsview would be compared to the slow tram that has to stop at red lights.

At any rate, you should not worry - you can ride the bus. And if there is a need for certain upgrades, then BRT can cover much more ground than a silly tram ever could.

 

[Amy Rose]

Don't worry, papa's building something more advanced than this planning for yesterday tram city approach.
We need subways. Just imagine how much faster a subway from STC to Downsview would be compared to the slow tram that has to stop at red lights.

At any rate, you should not worry - you can ride the bus. And if there is a need for certain upgrades, then BRT can cover much more ground than a silly tram ever could.

I best hope you be trolling, because buses run on diesel brt or not and to keep your smart brt systems running is to raise the fares according to the rising price of diesel since its not freely provided by the government, transit city (tramsit city if you prefer) would draw from electricity (not 100% clean but close) at the expense of giving people more breathing room instead of a subway where 85% of the city have been there rarely unless its something like the DRL. Also, most routes proposed will needs subways according to your standards because <2min brt service would still be not enough like building a new highway would just alleviate congestion before the average Joe is stuck again

 

[Dan416]

I think everyone can agree that LRT is awesome, but the plain fact of the matter is that it's too expensive, Toronto can't afford it. So we'll have to make do with the next-best thing: BRT. For the price of 1 km of LRT, we can build 10 km of BRT, which makes it better because we can cover more of the city with it.

 

[SlickFranky]

I think everyone can agree that LRT is awesome, but the plain fact of the matter is that it's too expensive, Toronto can't afford it. So we'll have to make do with the next-best thing: BRT. For the price of 1 km of LRT, we can build 10 km of BRT, which makes it better because we can cover more of the city with it.

Thanks for the sarcasm-dripping oversimplification of a complex issue. Can't wait for you to twist this logic back around to justify blowing it all on a subway from that one mall to that other mall.

 

[Solid Snake]

we can't argue that the Sheppard Subway was beneficial for Sheppard Avenue East from Yonge to Don Mills. The strongest ridership increases were on the Sheppard line and the towers being built near Leslie Station will add even more ridership.

The point of this line is not to connect 2 malls but 2 growing city centres where jobs are being created and more highrises condos are being build. Those City Centre already exist and what happened between Yonge and Don Mills can continue east.

Sheppard subway does have it's merits

 

[GTS]

Towers are OK for adding a bit of ridership but what really brings ridership on any transit line is its feeder bus routes. Great system intergration of having these feeder bus routes enter directly into stations is a great way of building ridership- a building can only provide so many riders- it is quite static. The Sheppard East LRT is going to have regular LRT stops, sort of like the shelters on St. Clair but I think the Scarborough RT, which is being converted to the more reliable LRT is going to still have manned Stations with fare paid areas and feeder bus routes entering directly into the Station like it presently has at 3 of its existing stops. I am thinking that the Station at Sheppard and Progress where the Scarborough LRT terminates (until it gets the much needed extension to Malvern Town Centre funded) is going to be like a regular manned transit station with a fare paid area, one of the only places this will exist for the Sheppard East LRT besides Don Mills Station. Maybe some of the feeder buses that presently go down to Scarborough Town Centre can now terminate at this intersection where the Sheppard East LRT meets with the Scarborough LRT. Does anyone one have info on what they have planned for this link?

 

[LAz]

we can't argue that the Sheppard Subway was beneficial for Sheppard Avenue East from Yonge to Don Mills. The strongest ridership increases were on the Sheppard line and the towers being built near Leslie Station will add even more ridership.

The point of this line is not to connect 2 malls but 2 growing city centres where jobs are being created and more highrises condos are being build. Those City Centre already exist and what happened between Yonge and Don Mills can continue east.

Sheppard subway does have it's merits

[modern planner]
NO IT IS NOT OKAY!!! NO ! NO NO! YOU GOT IT ALL WRONG!!
Here, learn a thing or two about our [failed] ways [/failed].

When planning for the future and making projections we take current trends and extrapolate them. If we take these land-use changes and new build stuff then that totally messes up our numbers. Therefore, to abide to Miller and others to whom we are under pressure to suck up to, we have to take the current trend and pretend that population growth is the only factor that can be considered.
Changing land use??? That's something from the 1970s planning. Screw that golden era. We want to ruin the city! That's the goal of the fuhrer. We need people to drive, and that goes against making the city livable.
[/modern planner]

Towers are OK for adding a bit of ridership but what really brings ridership on any transit line is its feeder bus routes. Great system intergration of having these feeder bus routes enter directly into stations is a great way of building ridership- a building can only provide so many riders- it is quite static.

In the 1960s and 1970s we did not succumb to the free market neoliberal-economics era. Thanks to the metro-toronto regional government it was possible to force developers where to build. Most new jobs were within a 5 minute block from the new ever expanding subway lines. We integrated land use and transit - this integration is the key thing. Modern planners have abandoned it because they are under extreme pressure to succumb to the interests of the private sector.

The point of this line is not to connect 2 malls but 2 growing city centres where jobs are being created and more highrises condos are being build. Those City Centre already exist and what happened between Yonge and Don Mills can continue east.

I look at it beyond that. Not just two centers, but the entire city. Imagine going from STC to York Uni in half an hour or less via the subway.

An extensive subway system is a necessity.

 

[Asterix]

Imagine going from STC to York Uni in half an hour or less via the subway.

One could use a line like that for any fantasy subway line anywhere in the city. But does it make fiscal sense? Is there a significant demand to travel from STC to York University that supercedes, say, vastly improving transit across every former city on Eglinton?

For that matter, what subway model are you using to project half hour travel times for that distance?

Taking a generous routing option (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=4207644) it is a distance of over 22 km. For 30 minute travel times your subway would have to be offering direct, no transfer service from STC to York and would have to average 44 km/h or better. What do you think current average operating speeds are for YUS or Bloor-Danforth?

An extensive subway system is a necessity.

A more accurate statement would be "an extensive transit system is a necessity". Blindly building infrastructure we can't afford and to a level that won't be needed within its lifespan is not a sane way to develop a city.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Toronto needs an efficient transit system.

Integrated Commuter Rail to travel large distances with convenient connections would be ideal and not so dependent on density around the stations. Subways with frequent stops are more ideal for short range rapid transit, not having to take the SRT and having to sit through like 50 Bloor/Danforth stations and transferring again to travel a long distance downtown, or anywhere else!

 

[LAz]

Blindly building infrastructure we can't afford and to a level that won't be needed within its lifespan is not a sane way to develop a city.

If I were sayings lets tunnel under every cross-street from lawrence to steeles, then yeah, I would agree with your reply. However, that is not the case.
On top of that you treat a big subway system as something that will be built within a few years. No.

One could use a line like that for any fantasy subway line anywhere in the city. But does it make fiscal sense? Is there a significant demand to travel from STC to York University that supercedes, say, vastly improving transit across every former city on Eglinton?

It has become a natural corridor that we can not simply ignore. Even more importantly, we need lines that are not downtown centric. That is absolutely vital if we are going to reduce our automobile dependence.

For 30 minute travel times your subway would have to be offering direct, no transfer service from STC to York and would have to average 44 km/h or better

Okay maybe I exagerated a little. Should we say 40 minutes instead? Still, I'd trade 40 minutes and a cheap fare to driving the car that long. Would I trade it for 1.5 hours with the tram plan? No, because 2 hours regular and 1.5 hours with tram is still shitty.

A more accurate statement would be "an extensive transit system is a necessity".

Our system is already extensive. Transit implies every mode of public transportation. We have lots of buses. But buses are not rapid transit. And guess what. Neither are trams.

vastly improving transit across every former city on Eglinton?

A metro line along Eglinton is necessary. But, the geniuses in power abandoned that idea. It will hopefully be something that will be returned to. But, for now we have a successful stub line which needs to be improved to be even better.

Eglinton is a natural elephant in the room. But I do not want to see more transit projects get slashed or cut while in progress. So, I want to see a line built before another gets started. Or... that it gets built enough so that it is not in jeopardy of being transformed into something stupid.

An ideal thing would be this - to start expanding sheppard first- and then get the funds to build eglinton west per the old plans. But man that would be such a slap in the face to those idiots that said "fill it in!"





What annoys me is how a minority wants to impose this plan on a majority which prefers a better alternative.

 

[Dan416]

Thanks for the sarcasm-dripping oversimplification of a complex issue. Can't wait for you to twist this logic back around to justify blowing it all on a subway from that one mall to that other mall.

You're right. It is an oversimplification of a complex issue. That's why I wrote it. I was mocking those who say why waste money on subways when you can use it on LRT and build more.

I don't need to "twist" the logic to justify subways. I believe sometimes high quality transit is necessary, and not cheaping out and buildng less quality transit just because it can reach more people.

 

[Rainforest]

A metro line along Eglinton is necessary. But, the geniuses in power abandoned that idea. It will hopefully be something that will be returned to. But, for now we have a successful stub line which needs to be improved to be even better.

Eglinton is a natural elephant in the room. But I do not want to see more transit projects get slashed or cut while in progress. So, I want to see a line built before another gets started. Or... that it gets built enough so that it is not in jeopardy of being transformed into something stupid.

An ideal thing would be this - to start expanding sheppard first- and then get the funds to build eglinton west per the old plans. But man that would be such a slap in the face to those idiots that said "fill it in!"

What annoys me is how a minority wants to impose this plan on a majority which prefers a better alternative.

I highly doubt that the majority of people living along Eglinton want Sheppard subway and nothing build on Eglinton.

Extending Sheppard subway has merit long-term, but the immediate benefit of going from buses to grade-separate transit will be much greater on Eglinton, since its central parts are much more congested than Sheppard east of Don Mills.

If they continue with Eglinton and just re-purpose the Sheppard funding from SELRT to a short subway extension (to Vic Park or Warden), this is kind of acceptable.

If they halt Eglinton altogether and send all funds to Sheppard, that will be outright stupid; both because central Eglinton needs grade-separate transit more urgently, and because Eglinton design is much more advanced.

Metrolinx still holds the purse and wants to prove its own relevance, while the wings of Ford´s electoral victory are fading with time. Most likely Metrolinx will not deny Ford outright, but will demand a City Council vote and a new Sheppard Subway EA before committing funds to Sheppard Subway extension. That means no construction for a couple of years at least; and by the time the EA is ready, we might see a new provincial government whose priorities are very remote from transit.