Transit City Plan

[GraphicMatt]

I think reports of the Ontario Liberals' demise are greatly exaggerated at this point, but a Kouvalis-driven Hudak campaign would certainly be something worth watching. (My feeling is that the voting bloc that's so taken by the current brand of populist conservatism will eventually wise up and realize it's almost entirely bullshit, but it may take a while.)

As far as transit is concerned, I would imagine the Liberals will hold to their "We are open to council-approved changes, but there will be no more money and any cancellation fees must be paid for by the city" line. It's safe, and I don't think they have much to worry about come election time as it is very unlikely Hudak will make increased transit funding for Toronto an election plank

Metrolinx, on the other hand, is definitely going to push hard to stay relevant. If the optics are that they just let a municipal politician steamroll over their plan their whole agency loses complete credibility and might as well be dismantled.

 

[Solid Snake]

I think reports of the Ontario Liberals' demise are greatly exaggerated at this point, but a Kouvalis-driven Hudak campaign would certainly be something worth watching. (My feeling is that the voting bloc that's so taken by the current brand of populist conservatism will eventually wise up and realize it's almost entirely bullshit, but it may take a while.)

That's what we all thought with Ford and look what happened

As far as transit is concerned, I would imagine the Liberals will hold to their "We are open to council-approved changes, but there will be no more money and any cancellation fees must be paid for by the city" line. It's safe, and I don't think they have much to worry about come election time as it is very unlikely Hudak will make increased transit funding for Toronto an election plank

Agreed but it would be the smart thing to do.

Metrolinx, on the other hand, is definitely going to push hard to stay relevant. If the optics are that they just let a municipal politician steamroll over their plan their whole agency loses complete credibility and might as well be dismantled.

It's not their plan. It's Miller and Giambrone's plan. They just took the whole project without questionning the methodology behind their numbers, choice of technology, choice of priorites and choice of routes. By not challenging Miller's vision (putting Sheppard East before DRL and Eglinton) they had already lost their credibility and relevence. They had became mere bankers. Only now are they being relevent by putting alternative on the table like elevated rail and actually trying to minimise as much as possible LRT impact on traffic.

 

[EnviroTO]

If you're not going to invest in finishing the Sheppard subway, don't bother squandering precious money on an SELRT that will turn the Sheppard line into a stump for many more years. It makes zero sense. If Sheppard is a capital drain, don't build anything there! There are plenty of more worthy candidates: DRL, Eglinton, SRT replacement, Yonge extension, Sherway extension, even Sheppard West extension.

How can spending a small fraction of the amount be squandering the money, yet spending huge sums be a wise investment? There are buses on Sheppard now with crappy trip times, unreliable schedules, and stuck in traffic. Something needs to be done. For Sheppard I would be fine with exclusive BRT lanes. For Eglinton that option isn't possible due to road widths. I can accept BRT where it will work, accept that LRT is a better lure for intensification and new ridership which may be worth the extra money, but doing nothing on Sheppard to deal with the current situation where more and more drivers and buses are required due to congestion has a cost as well. Make Transit City BRT on Sheppard and Finch, LRT on Eglinton... that makes some sense.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Re: Solid Snake

That's not giving Metrolinx enough credit. They did a lot of work on Transit City, especially on the regretfully shortened version we got after the funding was cut. The TTC and the City managed to convince them to keep the routes in-median, largely because there's an ideological belief that on-street transit promotes better development on arterial avenues than underground/elevated/hydro corridor transit. (I know some people think this belief amounts to heresy.)

The four Transit City lines on the table were identified by Metrolinx as part of their Big Move strategy. This was designed to be a long-term plan for transit in Ontario. Letting one mayor unilaterally change the plan makes them into a total joke.

There's a reason Metrolinx has been openly advocating the merits of the Transit City plan on their Twitter account for the last month.

 

[Asterix]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/1...litical-panel-a-rough-year-ahead-for-council/

Another rather relevant quote from that panel:

"Goldsbie Transit-wise, Toronto is about to go through the exact same experience that Ottawa did during the 2006–2010 term of Mayor Larry O’Brien. He scrapped an approved and funded light rail plan in favour of a vaguely defined underground alternative, setting the city back several years and $100-million. “While Ottawa waits for the new transit projects to happen, it is becoming congestion city,†former Ottawa councillor Clive Doucet wrote in the Citizen. “The same will happen in Toronto.†"

 

[Solid Snake]

Another rather relevant quote from that panel:

"Goldsbie Transit-wise, Toronto is about to go through the exact same experience that Ottawa did during the 2006–2010 term of Mayor Larry O’Brien. He scrapped an approved and funded light rail plan in favour of a vaguely defined underground alternative, setting the city back several years and $100-million. “While Ottawa waits for the new transit projects to happen, it is becoming congestion city,” former Ottawa councillor Clive Doucet wrote in the Citizen. “The same will happen in Toronto.” "

I'm sorry but the new plan is WAYYYYY better than the old one. The congestion is unfortunate but in the long term, it will be well worth it

 

[jje1000]

I'm sorry but the new plan is WAYYYYY better than the old one. The congestion is unfortunate but in the long term, it will be well worth it

Worth what? The congestion will ultimately drive away businesses in Toronto to the 905. Other parts of the city will still lack higher-order transit. And we will now have a massive money pit in our hands.

If Ford wants subways, he should at least start the Eglinton line first. After all, starting a new subway line is often the hardest part.

 

[Solid Snake]

Re: Solid Snake

That's not giving Metrolinx enough credit. They did a lot of work on Transit City, especially on the regretfully shortened version we got after the funding was cut.

Ok,project manager and bankers, but they didn't create TC

The TTC and the City managed to convince them to keep the routes in-median, largely because there's an ideological belief that on-street transit promotes better development on arterial avenues than underground/elevated/hydro corridor transit. (I know some people think this belief amounts to heresy.)

It's a belief and it's a fact. But the fact is that subways stimulate development even further, more so than LRT. Just look at Sheppard East between Yonge and Don Mills. The way it changed in less than 7 years is truly remaquable.

The four Transit City lines on the table were identified by Metrolinx as part of their Big Move strategy. This was designed to be a long-term plan for transit in Ontario. Letting one mayor unilaterally change the plan makes them into a total joke.

That mayor received the strongest mandate in the city history with the highest voting rate. Letting one provincial organization go against the will of the majority of voters makes democracy a total joke. Why are you disputing this anyways, McGuinty himself said he wouldn't impose a plan that the majority of Torontonians didn't want.

 

[Solid Snake]

Worth what? The congestion will ultimately drive away businesses in Toronto to the 905. Other parts of the city will still lack higher-order transit. And we will now have a massive money pit in our hands.

If Ford wants subways, he should at least start the Eglinton line first. After all, starting a new subway line is often the hardest part.

Have you actually read both of Ottawa's project before replying to this?
You do know I was talking about Ottawa here

 

[GraphicMatt]

Ok,project manager and bankers, but they didn't create TC

Okay, moving the goal posts over there - yes, I agree with you that Metrolinx, an agency that did not exist until after the Transit City plan was unveiled, played no part in its creation.

It's a belief and it's a fact. But the fact is that subways accelerates development, more so than LRT. Just look at Sheppard East between Yonge and Don Mills. The way it changed in less than 7 years is truly remaquable.

Transit on its own does little for development - sections of Bloor Street that are literally seconds away from a subway stop have seen little development over the decades that line has been in operation. The City has done a decent job encouraging development along the Sheppard-Yonge corridor but certainly there's a difference between nodal subway development and the kind of medium-density development the city is hoping for along the major avenues.

That mayor received the strongest mandate in the city history with the highest voting rate. Letting one provincial organization go against the will of the majority of voters makes democracy a total joke. Why are you disputing this anyways, McGuinty himself said he wouldn't impose a plan that the majority of Torontonians didn't want.

The mayor did not receive the strongest mandate in city history. He didn't even receive the strongest mandate in the past decade.

McGuinty is not Metrolinx. McGuinty will stay out of this debate as best he can. Metrolinx needs to prove its value to the GTA.

 

[Asterix]

I'm sorry but the new plan is WAYYYYY better than the old one. The congestion is unfortunate but in the long term, it will be well worth it

What new plan? TC was supposedly killed barely a month ago and the TTC was charged to come back in six weeks with suggestions on how they could accommodate the new mandate of 'subways in Scarborough'.

Given how many years it takes to do major infrastructure planning (eg Sheppard subway part I, Vaughan extension, TC, etc) how detailed a plan do you think can be thrown together in six weeks that amounts to something more than "well, you'll have to pay X dollars in contract cancellation costs, Y dollars to reimburse the province for TC money they already spent, and somewhere between W and Z dollars and M and N years to possibly build a subway on Sheppard"?

When you absolutely say this 'new plan' is wayyyyy better than the old one, you are obviously making up your mind before you see any facts (like what the new plan actually is) and so one wonders if there is anything at all from the real world that might have a chance of changing your opinion.

And yes, I'm so sure that all the congestion on Eglinton or Finch West that won't be addressed for decades will be worth having a few kms of additional Sheppard subway.

 

[jje1000]

Whoops, sorry. Didn't know you were talking about Ottawa and not Toronto in your vaguely worded post.

It's a belief and it's a fact. But the fact is that subways stimulate development even further, more so than LRT. Just look at Sheppard East between Yonge and Don Mills. The way it changed in less than 7 years is truly remaquable.

It's still mostly car-driven density. Aka vertical gated communities. There's really not much true urbanism in the area yet.

democracy[/B] a total joke. Why are you disputing this anyways, McGuinty himself said he wouldn't impose a plan that the majority of Torontonians didn't want.

The last time I checked, a majority of Torontonians is not fifteen percent of the population. Most of these people voted for him for other valid issues, like taxes and waste. Transit was but a sidethought.

 

[Solid Snake]

What new plan? TC was supposedly killed barely a month ago and the TTC was charged to come back in six weeks with suggestions on how they could accommodate the new mandate of 'subways in Scarborough'.

Given how many years it takes to do major infrastructure planning (eg Sheppard subway part I, Vaughan extension, TC, etc) how detailed a plan do you think can be thrown together in six weeks that amounts to something more than "well, you'll have to pay X dollars in contract cancellation costs, Y dollars to reimburse the province for TC money they already spent, and somewhere between W and Z dollars and M and N years to possibly build a subway on Sheppard"?

When you absolutely say this 'new plan' is wayyyyy better than the old one, you are obviously making up your mind before you see any facts (like what the new plan actually is) and so one wonders if there is anything at all from the real world that might have a chance of changing your opinion.

And yes, I'm so sure that all the congestion on Eglinton or Finch West that won't be addressed for decades will be worth having a few kms of additional Sheppard subway.

Again, I was responding to the quote from the article on the Ottawa LRT plan, not Toronto

 

[jje1000]

Really, transit should be taken out of the hands of the city and placed in the hands of an independent organization. Politicians are too finicky and short-sighted for long-term plans.

 

[Solid Snake]

It's still mostly car-driven density. Aka vertical gated communities. There's really not much true urbanism in the area yet.

The potential is there. You have 2 growing Centers.
From an urbanism point of view, Rapid Transit makes sense.
-Revitalize Sheppard Avenue East and extended the growth between Yonge and Don Mills farther East
-Increases quality of life, increases, density along the avenue and centers. Increases land value, increases tax revenue

SELRT failed in 2 areas
1-Not rapid Transit. Average speed of up to 23km/h forcing a transfer at both Don Mills and MCCowan for those wanting to commute between both Centers. You won't get that many people leaving their cars for the LRT. You'll likely draw more ridership from other bus lines but that won't fix gridlock on Sheppard East
2-The route is wrong. It should have been Don Mills to STC and not to the zoo.

The last time I checked, a majority of Torontonians is not fifteen percent of the population. Most of these people voted for him for other valid issues, like taxes and waste. Transit was but a sidethought.

That's why I specified Voters and not Torontonians, no system is perfect and that's how democracy works, for better or for worse