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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%

  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%
  • Total voters
    120
Breaking news. Beijing discovered to have 10 times the population of Toronto, a fraction of the car ownership, have recently held the olympics, a close relationship with the federal government, and a government that is powerful and doesn't need to answer to opposition parties.
 
I am envious of Beijing, but wonder what a transit forum there is like. Do you have to consider Ministry of Truth trolls whenever you post anything critical of government?

-Mr. Jones
 
EnviroTO said:
Breaking news. Beijing discovered to have 10 times the population of Toronto, a fraction of the car ownership, have recently held the olympics, a close relationship with the federal government, and a government that is powerful and doesn't need to answer to opposition parties.
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And we're using Cincinnatti as our transit model when it has 1/10'th the population of Toronto. Oh the irony.
 
And of course a proposal to include some form of downtown subway line on the east side even if it's short should be considered, not just Sheppard extensions that won't benefit most people. Even if it's a parallel Yonge line that ends at Sherbourne or something.
 
I found Towhey's attitude in the Sun story pretty amazing. Aren't the people with the money supposed to be dictating terms, and not the other way around? I don't rally understand why the province is supposed to bend over backwards for people who aren't prepared to risk one penny of their own capital on a massive and unnecessary overhaul of plans years in the making.

Then again, it's symbolic of something I generally wonder about the Ford people, and not just on the transit file. What if they simply don't want to play by the same rules as everyone else? Logic, political science, and basic human relations suggest they are in a fairly weak position on Transit city. And will have to compromise significantly relative to their stated objectives in order to obtain at least some of them. But what if they don't care? What if they really are prepared to say 'no' to anything but 100 percent of their ideal scenario, even if it means holding the region hostage? Would the province really walk away if it meant getting nothing at all built? I think this is worth wondering. That said, political constraints on Council do count too, especially regarding Egointon. But I wouldn't assume the Ford crew are willing to budge even a little.
 
allabootmatt said:
I found Towhey's attitude in the Sun story pretty amazing.
Click to expand...

Towhey's the guy who blogged back in February about wanting to completely privatize the TTC, get rid of pretty well all surface transit and make everyone car pool or hire random street jitneys to get around.
 
Part of me wonders if the Ford team's relentless "nothing above ground" messaging is all part of their primary goal, which is to improve the city's financial position in the immediate short-term. Fiscally, Transit City represented an immediate threat. Sheppard would have been rolling before the end of the mayor's first term in office, and with it would have come increased operating costs. By pushing for an all-underground plan they know they're essentially pushing the whole transit expansion file to the backburner.

I don't know how else to explain their no-compromises attitude. It's like they want the TTC to come back with a very expensive plan that will require a decade of prep work.
 
One thing that people don't seem to be taking into account is voter ignorance. People basically gobbled up all the vague misinformation spread by the Ford campaign. People hear things like "accountability", "lower taxes", "less traffic" and "more subways" and don't stop to think about it. They just went and voted for the guy throwing out the right keywords.

I have talked to may people and the response about Ford's Transit Plan is usually: "Rob Ford is right. Subways are better than streetcars. We should be building those". They are generally under the impression that Ford was going to build subways from everywhere to everywhere, because when I inform them that his plan is to extend Sheppard and Bloor-Danfoth East, while canceling the Eglinton, Finch, SLRT and Eglinton LRT lines, they seem genuinely surprised.

People simply do not understand how expensive subway construction is, judging by the people who simply do not believe me when I say subway construction goes around $300million per kilometer. I've heard things such as "there's no way it costs that much to dig a circular hole in the ground", for example.

So does Rob Ford have a mandate to cancel everything related to a streetcar? Probably, because that part of his campaign was fairly clear, and people voted for him anyway. I guess voters decided that they'd rather have low taxes than a high quality of life.
 
Regular contributors to this site (ie. engaged citizens) argue that TC lines will be removing traffic lanes and running at 20kmph...just imagine how poorly informed the average person is.
 
Regular contributors to this site (ie. engaged citizens) argue that TC lines will be removing traffic lanes and running at 20kmph...just imagine how poorly informed the average person is.
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The average citizen has little knowledge or interest in Transit City because they are not Transit Junkies like most of the people following or posting to this thread. If asked they probably think in terms of St. Clair Ave as an example of Transit City, you know, the streetcar line that stole 2 lanes of road space from vehicular traffic and runs as bunchy and slowly as ever.
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
And we're using Cincinnatti as our transit model when it has 1/10'th the population of Toronto. Oh the irony.
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I didn't bring up the Cincinnati example as an example of what we should aspire to be. My commentary on the subject is that Cincinnati is investing X to get Y which is orders of magnitude greater in return. I don't think Toronto should build subways because other cities of similar size do, and I don't think Toronto should build LRT because cities of similar size do, etc. We should do what is right for Toronto based on technical evaluations of what is required to carry a reasonably expectable modelled demand and proving that the cost-benefit is there. There is no sound evaluation of cost and capacity requirements that will say building a subway extension on Sheppard is a sound idea.
 
EnviroTO said:
I didn't bring up the Cincinnati example as an example of what we should aspire to be. My commentary on the subject is that Cincinnati is investing X to get Y which is orders of magnitude greater in return. I don't think Toronto should build subways because other cities of similar size do, and I don't think Toronto should build LRT because cities of similar size do, etc. We should do what is right for Toronto based on technical evaluations of what is required to carry a reasonably expectable modelled demand and proving that the cost-benefit is there. There is no sound evaluation of cost and capacity requirements that will say building a subway extension on Sheppard is a sound idea.
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If you're not going to invest in finishing the Sheppard subway, don't bother squandering precious money on an SELRT that will turn the Sheppard line into a stump for many more years. It makes zero sense. If Sheppard is a capital drain, don't build anything there! There are plenty of more worthy candidates: DRL, Eglinton, SRT replacement, Yonge extension, Sherway extension, even Sheppard West extension.
 
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/1...litical-panel-a-rough-year-ahead-for-council/

Gurney My sense on the transit file is that Queen’s Park will be more supportive than you might expect, given that they have enough to worry about right now without opening a new front against Toronto. Will they offer up more cash? Doubtful, but I imagine they’ll be flexible about using the dollar figure they’d already been reconciled to in ways that will suit Ford’s agenda. That being said, to address Chris’s question, my guess for the traffic/transit situation to be found one year from today is “incrementally worse.” A year from now we’ll have more people, more cars and the same roads and same transit lines. That’ll be the case for years ahead, too. So if you guys were wondering what you should have put in my stocking, an audiobook would have been great for all the time I’m going to spend idling. No transit plan can substantially address that in the short term. We’ve gone too far down the tubes for quick fixes.

Gurney For sure the Tories will want to tap into Ford’s achievement, but as I said, the Liberals will want to play ball, too. They need at least calm on the Toronto front, if not outright co-operation. (Unlikely, but hey.) While we won’t know details until the provincial platforms are laid out, in the abstract it is a good time to be negotiating from the city’s side of the table. Whether or not any of the other levels of government will have any cash to pony up in addition to their goodwill is another issue altogether. And that’ll be the same approach the city takes into its talks with the labour unions, too. Just without all the goodwill.
Click to expand...

I think Gurney has a realistic view of the political atmosphere surrounding Toronto and it's transit needs and how the province might react. Logically, Metrolinx and the province saying no to Ford's plans and imposing Transit City will surely backfire. They know full well they would have Rob Ford being loud (and we all know he can) about how it's the province's fault the city will be without subways. The liberals don't want and are in no position to deal with that for a full year before the election and the campaign.

More money? Probably not.

Accomodating Ford? More likely than you think. Metrolinx offering elevated trains is already a sign that they are leaning towards that direction. Having them saying that Transit City is still on the table is not surprising and it was very predictable. They want the support of the outer GTA and saying yes to whatever Toronto wants would be seen as a sign of weakness and they don't want to make that mistake too early on. They are waiting to see how things will play out with the council vote and with the TTC and their new plan.

I believe Sheppard LRT is dead. The province is fighting the city to save Eglinton (Which makes sense, boring machines bought) and they are right to do so since Ford made Sheppard the number 1 priority (and he's wrong).

The Liberals are nervous for the following reasons
-The Feds winning Vaughan
-Ford winning Toronto
-Anti-McGuinty wave hitting Ontario


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6f/Ontario2007.png
By judging by the map above, the liberals losing Toronto would be a disaster.
One thing you can be damn sure. The liberals won't risk losing over Toronto transit, a project that Miller designed and not them.

This is how politics works
1-They will go along with it and if Ford's plan is a disaster, they'll blame the whole thing on him
2-If it's a success and/or most people are satisfied, they'll give themselves credit for listening to Toronto
Win-Win


"Regionally, EKOS said the Conservatives and Liberals are deadlocked in a statistical tie in Ontario, including the Greater Toronto, which the pollster declared "will be the key battleground in the next election."
Click to expand...
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/12/09/ekos-voter-intention-poll.html#ixzz19cycRk8d

I predict the Conservative will be more generous towards Toronto since they have a realistic chance to win seats within the GTA and Toronto.

To conclude, like Gurney said, Toronto's gridlock (being one of the worse in North America) is so bad that short terms solutions won't do anything at this point. Rapid Transit is needed at this point, no matter in what shape or form that might be.
 
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