Transit City Plan

[Ansem]

Why does you world revolved around STC when it is clearly shown ridership on 192 doesn't justify an LRT line there now?

You mean the 190 Rocket Bus?

Your attitude is what got Ford in City Hall in the first place. Downtown Toronto thinking that they know what the rest of the city needs without bothering into taking their concerns under consideration (Miller and his transit City). People got fed up by that kind of attitude and put Ford at City Hall and now Downtown Toronto and the downtown media are screaming in outrage that the surburb rejected their "plan" and candidates.

I'm not pro-Ford and I do think he's not the smartest politician out there but I really understand why he got elected.

Scarborough: 602,575 (Population)
3,160.9/Km2 (density)

North York: 635,370 (population)
3,439.2/Km2 Density

Total population:1,237,945

Montreal's population is 1,620,693 and that's for the whole Island including the cities that separated from the core city.

So Downtown Toronto is telling 1,237,945 people that rapid Transit (LRT or HRT) is too good for them and not worth the investment????

So Downtown Toronto is telling 1,237,945 people that they live in the middle of nowhere and are of no importance, hence subway spending is a waste????

You're as ARROGANT as Miller and his gang was and the medias and downtowners currently are.

Why do you force riders going east of Kennedy Rd having to travel to STC to get to Melvern when it a lot faster going straight across Sheppard?

STC makes more sense than going east to Meadowvale and the Zoo.

STC is the east entrance to the eastern (Durham) region. The way you're seeing things is bad for transit. Eastern Toronto is not only about the Malvern but you have to think about the whole eastern part of the city and east GTA.

The Government is seeing Transit in a regional point of view, why can't you? You accused the pro-subway of only thinking about STC while the subway would serve the eastern GTA and you're only concern is Malvern...What a contradiction!!!

STC as a terminal for both Subway lines accomplish the following:

-Attracts new riders to public transit within the City of Toronto, reducing gridlocks which is a major issue here. People will leave their cars for rapid Transit and SELRT is not rapid transit.

-With a rapid Transit on Sheppard from STC to Sheppard-Yonge, you attract new riders from Durham.
a)Gridlock on Yonge street will be reduced since people can take the subway from STC instead of staying on the bus to Yonge-->Less congestion on the 401 as well. This will increase ridership for GO since the time it will take to get to work will be reduced which is what convinces people to leave their cars home or at a parking lot and take transit.

-Sheppard line will make a lot of YRT and Viva trips shorter and more efficient. They can just cross Steeles to the closest Sheppard Subway instead of overcrowding Yonge Street to get to Finch. Shorter and faster trips will increase ridership on those routes and reduces gridlocks on the roads and highways.

-STC with 2 subway lines will fast forward that area's growth. It will attract new residents and businesses to STC, increase land values and that's more taxes (higher taxes) going to the city. It will multiply the residential and commercial real estate projects, which will solidify STC as a City Centre like NYCC.

The same will happen along the Sheppard corridor. We all saw what happened between Yonge and Don Mills. More projects, more business, increased land value, more taxes revenue for the city and a revitalization of the avenue. The strongest ridership increase on the TTC subway network were on the Sheppard line.

How do you develop an Avenue when things are underground in the first place considering Danforth has never really recover from the lost of Streetcars after the subway open?

I would have to check the zoning in that area. But Yonge is looking great and Sheppard from Yonge to and even beyond Don Mills has drastically changed the Avenue. Why would it not continue farther east? If the city doesn't change it's zoning than the problem lies there.

Isn't what happened to the Spadina line? No rezoning meant little developments and project along the line.

Mextrolinx owns everything surrounding Sheppard and therefore Metrolinx can continue to build it over the objects of Ford as well run it in place of TTC. The Government can give power to Metrolinx to operate within Toronto regardless of the City ACT preventing other system from doing so that is on the books.

Like I said to Nfitz...you don't get politics

Mcguinty already caved...Before the election they said they wouldn't touch a thing regardless of who wins... and now they will do whatever Toronto wants minus giving the extra funds.

McGuinty is nervous...
Anti-liberal feeling in the province and the GTA
Vaughan became Conservative
Conservative Mayor and council ruling Toronto from within...
Election is in less than a year...

Mcguinty can't afford to not listen to what Ford has to say.
The way he looks at it is

A) I tell Toronto that it's too late and we have control of the project and things goes as planned...By doing this, he's guaranteed that this will backfire at the election and Ford will blame him for the whole year. Ford saves face and McGuinty lose the suburbs

B) I give him what he wants minus additional funds (which still remains to be seen) and if things go wrong, Ford takes full blame and I respected the will of the voters. He can't be blame for what happens after. (win win situation)

So, no...SELRT is dead and he will make Metrolinx modify the project. You should know by now that politics wins over responsible Transit planning which is a sad thing.

I am sure when it comes time to vote on Ford plan at Council it will be defeated. I know a few Scarborough councillors who will support the Sheppard LRT since they only wanted the BD line in the first place.

What are your sources???
No one on the corridor wants the LRT and the councillors have been pretty clear on that in the past. They reluctantly supported it. Why would they go against the people they represent since having subway funding has never been that close to reality?

Ford plan will pass

Maybe it is time to go back to the yearly or when need referendums asking the residents if they really want things when the price tag is show as how much their tax bill will go up by voting yes for it. That is why the subway plan of 1912 die.

Why not doing things in between?

The Miller/Giambrone approached was an extreme. They told people what they thought was good for them without taking any of their concerns into account. That's the "My way or the highway attitude"

Your referendum idea is the other extreme...

The solution is making plans and explain it to the population but be ready to COMPROMISE...Something Miller/Giambrone refused to do....which killed their baby.

TTC is going to come back with a plan that will say how much this plan will cost as well how long it will take. At this point, Ford is going to try to fit it into the 1.8% tax increase and at the end of the day, he will not be able to do it. The government is on record saying you have approved funding for this amount and if your plan is going to cost more than that, sorry don't have the money.

Let's not speculate and wait for the TTC report

If you think the PC let alone NDP is going to help if they are elected in 2011, not going to happen.

I agree with you on that issue, which is why Ford is pressuring Mcguinty into giving more money. The liberals are in survival mode and they don't want to lose Toronto like Ignatieff lost Vaughan.

So unless you can convince the residents of eating a higher tax rate of 1.8%, not many km of subway is going to get built over the next 10 years or so. Sheppard will not be the first one.

People hate taxe increase when they don't see how that increase improves their quality of life. Most of Miller's tax increase were to fund new expenses and he left the city broke. People felt they paid higher taxes with nothing in return.

Tell people that higher taxes will give them a new subway station per years and you would be surprise on how acceptable they would find it. They see what they get in return and that's what politicians don't seem to understand.

I feel Eglinton LRT will survive. That would require more funds and I think that's what Ford will try to get out of the province, otherwise...he'll have to be creative to find the money...Reaching out to the feds? more pressure on the province? Loan? Selling assets? Cutting so bad in other programs...who knows...

The problem today as it was in 1900 is traffic and unless you start to deal with it now, you will have to pave over the city for those single car drivers. There is 20% of those drivers out there you will never get out of cars regardless what you do from higher road tolls to high fuel cost as they can pay for it knowing it will free up space on the roads by drivers who cannot. There is a section of the population that look at buses been 3rd class and for the poor people to used and will never get on one.

That's why you have to offer Rapid Transit to the drivers that are willing use public transit but can't because it's not available to them. How many drivers do we all know that would take the subway or rapid transit if it was available to them?

Here we are a city that was known for good public transit special for streetcars are now going to step back into history where cities lost 50% or more of their ridership going to buses who are now moving back to LRTs to revive their city as well deal with traffic.

We have a gridlock problem and streetcars won't fix that (SELRT)
The only Rapid transit LRT on the whole transit city project is Eglinton underground section and perhaps the west portion. The rest of the whole plan does nothing to fix the gridlock problem and won't get people out of their cars.

Besides Eglinton tunnel, the rest of the project is a glorified St.Clair and people won't quit driving over that. I don't see how removing 2 lanes and not having a good portion of drivers converting to streetcars will fix gridlock

My world does not revolved around shopping mall considering I am only 10 minute ride from one in the first place.

The world does not revolved around the downtown like it used to, but right across the city to the point we are seeing more urban living than business. Therefore people will walk to where they are going.

It is know as a fact from TTC themself, Sheppard Subway is a money pit.

Wrong...The ridership on Sheppard and the investments that the subway brought to the avenue proves that's it's not a money pit. All those new taxes revenues weren't there before. The city is making money out of it.

If you compare the ridersphip of the Sheppard line to some of Chicago's line, you can't say that it's a money pit

Average daily ridership (weekdays)

Yonge-University-Spadina (Toronto)
30.2 Km
32 Stations
714,210

Bloor-Danforth (Toronto)
26.2 Km
31 Stations
495,280

Chicago Red Line
37.7 Km
34 Stations
248,844

Chicago Blue Line
55.7 Km
33 4Stations
154,012

Brown Line
18.3 Km
28 Stations
98,307

Green Line
33.5 Km
29 Stations
65,156

Orange Line
20.1 Km
17 Stations
55,787

Sheppard Subway (North York-Toronto)
5.5Km --Not going Downtown
5 Stations
47,700

Purple Line
24 Km
19 Stations
39,799

Scarborough RT (Scarborough-Toronto)
6.4 Km
6 Stations
39,320

Pink Line
18 Km
13,461

Yellow Line
8.2 Km
2 Stations
4,980


Sheppard outperforms some of Chicago's line who are way longer and have more stations...without going downtown Toronto. With an extension to downsview, the ridership would go way higher and if you add Victoria Park, then Agincourt and STC...The ridership more than justified HRT. Don't forget that York and Durham riders will use it as well.

I have no doubt that Eglinton's number would be higher. One thing's clear is that overcrowding our subway lines is not being successful. Those numbers on the Bloor and Yonge lines shows how bad we need the DRL (which should have been priority #1 from day 1...NOT SELRT)

 

[Ansem]

As Ford doesn't seem to object to LRT that doesn't interfere with traffic, it seems that the central portion of the Eglinton LRT is safe.

On a project-by-project basis the path forward is relatively clear:

Eglinton: Cancel the 6 km of surface LRT from Don Mills to Kennedy and use the savings to pay for the grade separation around Leslie, and from Black Creek to Jane. Result is a 13.5 km LRT grade-separated line from Jane to Don Mills.

Sheppard: Cancel the 13 km of surface LRT from Don Mills to Conlins and use the money to simply extend the Sheppard subway by 2 stops, 2 km to Victoria Park North. There should be a bit of extra money and you build Ford's proposed Willowdale station and perhaps 1 km on Sheppard West towards Downsview.

Finch West: Cancel the 11 km of surface LRT from Finch West to Humber College and instead build 4.5 km 4-station subway extension from Sheppard to Downsview. A bit of the money comes from Sheppard East LRT project.

SRT: The entire 10 km project is already grade-separated. So in theory you just keep it. Or you could replace the 10 km of LRT with a 5.5 km 2-station subway extension to Scarborough Centre, if you can find a bit of extra $.

So (going with subway for SRT) you replace 53 km of LRT (70 new stations) with 13.5 km of LRT (15 new stations) and 12 km of subway (6 new stations but a loss of 4 existing SRT stations).

What's striking is how few new stations you serve with 12 km and $4-billion of new subway. 53 km of rapid transit versus 25 km of rapid transit. 70 new stations versus a net of 17 new stations.

The only rapid transit part of Transit city is SRT and Underground Eglinton, the rest is Streetcar a la St.Clair...

Other than that, Your plan is very very good...Excellent Phase I plan
Never thought I would see eye to eye with you.

I actually liked Finch West LRT but the TTC should start by putting express buses on Finch West to see how it goes

 

[nfitz]

Side question: Have the LRVs for Finch West been ordered yet? Or were they all part of the same order (for all 4 lines)?

Yes. 23 vehicles for Finch, along with the 35 for Sheppard, 48 for the SRT, and 76 for Eglinton.

 

[nfitz]

Other than that, Your plan is very very good...Excellent Phase I plan

That's using both the Metrolinx Phase 1 money (2010-2015) and the Phase 2 money (2015-2010).

It's a plan to meet Ford's criteria. I'm not convinced it's the best plan. But if council plays along, it doesn't really matter worrying about LRT/BRT.

Never thought I would see eye to eye with you.

I think we see eye-to-eye on implementation ... its the philosophy of what is the best mode ... which isn't part of this aspect of the debate.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Wrong...The ridership on Sheppard and the investments that the subway brought to the avenue proves that's it's not a money pit. All those new taxes revenues weren't there before. The city is making money out of it.

If you compare the ridersphip of the Sheppard line to some of Chicago's line, you can't say that it's a money pit

Average daily ridership (weekdays)

Yonge-University-Spadina (Toronto)
30.2 Km
32 Stations
714,210

Bloor-Danforth (Toronto)
26.2 Km
31 Stations
495,280

Chicago Red Line
37.7 Km
34 Stations
248,844

Chicago Blue Line
55.7 Km
33 4Stations
154,012

Brown Line
18.3 Km
28 Stations
98,307

Green Line
33.5 Km
29 Stations
65,156

Orange Line
20.1 Km
17 Stations
55,787

Sheppard Subway (North York-Toronto)
5.5Km --Not going Downtown
5 Stations
47,700

Purple Line
24 Km
19 Stations
39,799

Scarborough RT (Scarborough-Toronto)
6.4 Km
6 Stations
39,320

Pink Line
18 Km
13,461

Yellow Line
8.2 Km
2 Stations
4,980


Sheppard outperforms some of Chicago's line who are way longer and have more stations...without going downtown Toronto. With an extension to downsview, the ridership would go way higher and if you add Victoria Park, then Agincourt and STC...The ridership more than justified HRT. Don't forget that York and Durham riders will use it as well.

I've seen this argument a lot when people argue that Sheppard isn't a failure, and I don't think it is either, but the reality is that it costs a lot to operate and its current ridership could have easily been handled by LRT. In its current form, it's neither a failure nor a wise investment.

The TTC faces unsustainable operating costs due to losing the provincial subsidy and continued increases in ridership (despite even a recession and fare increases). The Spadina extension alone will cost over 10 million dollars a year to operate. These subway extensions come with long-term costs that need to be accounted for somewhere.

LRTs add to the operating budget too, of course, but not to the same degree. (Well-managed, I think they're even cheaper to operate than express buses.)

 

[Paleo]

You mean the 190 Rocket Bus?

Your attitude is what got Ford in City Hall in the first place. Downtown Toronto thinking that they know what the rest of the city needs without bothering into taking their concerns under consideration (Miller and his transit City). People got fed up by that kind of attitude and put Ford at City Hall and now Downtown Toronto and the downtown media are screaming in outrage that the surburb rejected their "plan" and candidates.

I'm not pro-Ford and I do think he's not the smartest politician out there but I really understand why he got elected.

Scarborough: 602,575 (Population)
3,160.9/Km2 (density)

North York: 635,370 (population)
3,439.2/Km2 Density

Total population:1,237,945

Montreal's population is 1,620,693 and that's for the whole Island including the cities that separated from the core city.

So Downtown Toronto is telling 1,237,945 people that rapid Transit (LRT or HRT) is too good for them and not worth the investment????

So Downtown Toronto is telling 1,237,945 people that they live in the middle of nowhere and are of no importance, hence subway spending is a waste????

You're as ARROGANT as Miller and his gang was and the medias and downtowners currently are.

Nicely done. Now tell us how the "1.2 million" in western North York or southern Scarborough will benefit from this.

For your next trick you can start pre-facing your posts with:
Scarborough: 3,160.9/Km2 (density)
North York: 3,439.2/Km2 Density
New York City: 10,000/Km2
Remember to do this especially if you decide to raise other cities as an example.

I always appreciate his posts because more often than not, it's like a splash of cold water to the face. Whether it's calling out the management of St. Clair construction, the half done Dufferin subway, or in this case, the legacy project that would have Greg Sorbara blushing, he always gets straight to the point and the reasoning without care for hurting anyone's feelings. Small grammatical and other mistakes don't take away from the point.

 

[Ansem]

That's using both the Metrolinx Phase 1 money (2010-2015) and the Phase 2 money (2015-2010).

It's a plan to meet Ford's criteria. I'm not convinced it's the best plan. But if council plays along, it doesn't really matter worrying about LRT/BRT.

It's the best compromise and I hope this what Ford will accept.

I think we see eye-to-eye on implementation ... its the philosophy of what is the best mode ... which isn't part of this aspect of the debate.

Eglinton Underground should stay LRT. The boring machines are bought and the vehicules are on order. Montreal Metro proves that you don't need heavy rail to provide efficient rapid transit.

The thing with Sheppard is that having 2 different mode on the same route is counter productive like the SRT.
We should have learned our lesson from the SRT by now since 25 years later, where correcting a mistake.

Imagined if we did it right the first time...we would have an extra 600 Million to spend elsewhere.

If Sheppard didn't have a subway, LRT would definately have been the better choice

 

[Ansem]

I've seen this argument a lot when people argue that Sheppard isn't a failure, and I don't think it is either, but the reality is that it costs a lot to operate and its current ridership could have easily been handled by LRT. In its current form, it's neither a failure nor a wise investment.

The TTC faces unsustainable operating costs due to losing the provincial subsidy and continued increases in ridership (despite even a recession and fare increases). The Spadina extension alone will cost over 10 million dollars a year to operate. These subway extensions come with long-term costs that need to be accounted for somewhere.

LRTs add to the operating budget too, of course, but not to the same degree. (Well-managed, I think they're even cheaper to operate than express buses.)

The Sheppard line cost a lot because it is poorly managed.

That line should not continue to operate at 2am. Montreal used to shutdown the blue line at 11h15pm, then they gradually closed later as ridership pick up

The TTC went to the other extreme of having the last train leaving Sheppard-Yonge around 2am while you have a blue night bus on the same corridor. It should be closed at 12h30am.

 

[nfitz]

Montreal Metro proves that you don't need heavy rail to provide efficient rapid transit.

Most of the deep London Underground lines prove that you don't need heavy rail (or at least full-size rail vehicles).

In reality if in 75 to 100 years you need more capacity, then you build another line ... Lawrence or St. Clair (wouldn't a grade-separated St. Clair East from St. Clair to Warden stations be an interesting idea). The same way that with Yonge at capacity, the solution is simply another line elsewhere to reduce capacity.

 

[gweed123]

Yes. 23 vehicles for Finch, along with the 35 for Sheppard, 48 for the SRT, and 76 for Eglinton.

Thanks for clarifying. I guess if they're already paid for, someone can find some use for them (even if it's Mississauga, etc).

That's using both the Metrolinx Phase 1 money (2010-2015) and the Phase 2 money (2015-2010).

It's a plan to meet Ford's criteria. I'm not convinced it's the best plan. But if council plays along, it doesn't really matter worrying about LRT/BRT.

I think we see eye-to-eye on implementation ... its the philosophy of what is the best mode ... which isn't part of this aspect of the debate.

It's not the best plan by any means, but it's the best plan under the circumstances, and with the parameters we have to work with. There are so many limiting factors in play now, that we really need a plan that manages to bend and twist itself in order to satisfy most parties, but at the same time is actually workable.

While this plan isn't something that I'd have thought up a year or so ago, it would stand a decent chance of working.

PS: I made a map of this exact plan about a month ago. I'll post it later tonight, so we can get a visual of it.

 

[Ansem]

Nicely done. Now tell us how the "1.2 million" in western North York or southern Scarborough will benefit from this.

For your next trick you can start pre-facing your posts with:
Scarborough: 3,160.9/Km2 (density)
North York: 3,439.2/Km2 Density
New York City: 10,000/Km2
Remember to do this especially if you decide to raise other cities as an example..

I take you haven't read my past posts...

I don't think we need subways going everywhere through North York and Scarborough. That's why I put the emphasis on Rapid transit

You have alot of people living on a huge territory which makes building subways a very difficult task compare to most Europeen counteirs and NYC.

But you still need Rapid Transit to:

A)Move those people faster
B)Densifying the corridor where you will implement your rapid line so your investment makes sense. At the same time, those living away from the main corridors will have a shorter bus ride to reach that rapid corridor and thus increasing your ridership on that line.
C)Densifying the corridor attracts business and residential projects which will attract more business-->more taxe revenues that you can reinvest.

Public transit is an investment and not an expense.

Now, regarding the whole HRT vs LRT...

I'm fine with LRT if:
-It's rapid transit
-Grade Separated

Eglinton Underground fits the category but not Sheppard LRT

Miller decided that it wasn't worth it on Sheppard and that explained the massive opposition to the project. In the end, it was 1 billion dollar for a St.Clair streetcar. (was call as such by the medias BTW)

As for the RT, I never really talked about it because I didn't want to assume knowing what was best for those using it everyday.
I do understand why people are tired of the transfer thought. Kennedy should have been built better to make it less painful.

Who ever designed Kennedy station was surely unqualified, incompetent or on crack.

I always appreciate his posts because more often than not, it's like a splash of cold water to the face. Whether it's calling out the management of St. Clair construction, the half done Dufferin subway, or in this case, the legacy project that would have Greg Sorbara blushing, he always gets straight to the point and the reasoning without care for hurting anyone's feelings. Small grammatical and other mistakes don't take away from the point.

You must have confused me for someone else.

I didn't live in Toronto when St.Clair reconstruction started and I actually like St.Clair alot

I've heard of Dufferin was supposed to be a subway, but I wasnt in town when this was an issue...Only thing I said about Dufferin is that they have to do something with that corridor.

I have no clue what's the legacy project...

I don't hurt anyones feeling, it's never personal

PS: French happens to be my first language...

 

[SimonP]

That's using both the Metrolinx Phase 1 money (2010-2015) and the Phase 2 money (2015-2010).

It's a plan to meet Ford's criteria. I'm not convinced it's the best plan. But if council plays along, it doesn't really matter worrying about LRT/BRT.

That's the most unfortunate thing. With the state of provincial finances, the plan that gets decided on in the next few months will likely be the only new transit Toronto gets for the next ten to twenty years.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I understand the need to compromise, but I find it really disappointing that Toronto has essentially decided it's impossible to run reliable, quick on-street transit as happens in many places all over the world. It's really letting the TTC's bad line management practices off the hook. I had hoped that the new TC lines would force some better practices for in-median and on-street operation of rail vehicles that would lead to improvements on the legacy streetcar lines.

The thing about on-street operation is that if a transit agency can make it work they have huge potential for cheap (relatively) expansion all over the place.

 

[Ansem]

That's the most unfortunate thing. With the state of provincial finances, the plan that gets decided on in the next few months will likely be the only new transit Toronto gets for the next ten to twenty years.

Which is why the city have to find a way to not rely that much on the province for future projects.

The irony in all this is that Montreal will charge the same License plate fee that Ford is about to kill and have tolls on all bridges and tunnels entering the Island of Montreal. 100% of the revenues is supposed to go to Public Transit.

Ford can clean city hall if he can, then let us have a pro-transit mayor next time that will have the courage to put tolls on the DVP and Gardiner.

 

[Ansem]

I understand the need to compromise, but I find it really disappointing that Toronto has essentially decided it's impossible to run reliable, quick on-street transit as happens in many places all over the world. It's really letting the TTC's bad line management practices off the hook. I had hoped that the new TC lines would force some better practices for in-median and on-street operation of rail vehicles that would lead to improvements on the legacy streetcar lines.

The thing about on-street operation is that if a transit agency can make it work they have huge potential for cheap (relatively) expansion all over the place.

Transit City is a good idea.
They choose the wrong corridor and had the wrong priority