M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Why not start a bunch of EA processes that are open ended, and when it comes time to want to build something the EA process will have already been done and won't have to wait for that process.
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
howl
Active Member
While I'm not going to claim Transit City is without fault - it's a well thought out plan that is the result of years of study and planning. It is based on a complete assessment of predicted travel patterns and growth patterns in the City and surrounding municipalities. It is part of a larger network of Metrolinx lines (The Big Move) that will eventually connect the entire GTA by transit. This network is based on the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe (GPGGH) which all municipalites, including Toronto, have to respect. If you start changing the transit network now, not only do you put everything on hold for another three to five years, you screw up the growth plan for Toronto and it's neighbours. The development community in particular have made investments based on The Big Move and the GPGGH, which are supported by Provincial legislation, so they will not be happy.
Ford's idea is like someone buying a property, designing a house, getting all the approvals and permits, borrowing all the money to build it, buying all the materials and digging a hole for the foundation - then deciding maybe he should have bought the property next door instead, so everything gets put on hold, the foundation gets filled in, the materials sent to the dump, the borrowed money returned with penalties, and then calling the real estate agent to see it the property next door is available for sale.
Ford's idea is like someone buying a property, designing a house, getting all the approvals and permits, borrowing all the money to build it, buying all the materials and digging a hole for the foundation - then deciding maybe he should have bought the property next door instead, so everything gets put on hold, the foundation gets filled in, the materials sent to the dump, the borrowed money returned with penalties, and then calling the real estate agent to see it the property next door is available for sale.
Ansem
Banned
Regarding the LRT vehicules ordered by Metrolinx for Transit City...
Wouldn't Bombardier be ok into making subway cars with that money instead?
Did they even started to design the LRT cars who won't be the same as the downtown streetcars?
They already built the new subway trains, they could start tommorow if they wanted. Wouldn't that be a good compromise to avoid the LRT vehicule cancellation fees?
Wouldn't Bombardier be ok into making subway cars with that money instead?
Did they even started to design the LRT cars who won't be the same as the downtown streetcars?
They already built the new subway trains, they could start tommorow if they wanted. Wouldn't that be a good compromise to avoid the LRT vehicule cancellation fees?
Dan416
Senior Member
Hurontario needs 36 LRVs for 2015-2021, and 72 for after 2021.
So we can take the 35 that were to go to Sheppard, plus maybe some extra from the SRT. Let's round it to 40 LRVs to Hurontario. That leaves 43 from the SRT. Give maybe 30-40 of them to Hamilton. Redeploy the remaining 8-18 LRVs on Eglinton or give them to Ottawa.
nfitz
Superstar
However Hurontario is unfunded, along with the Don Mills LRT and the Jane LRT.
Probably best to worry about the plan first, and the detail of the LRT units second. If there's a plan in place, what must be done with the LRT units will become obvious.
Paleo
Active Member
Most of the people using Sheppard are just transferring from the bus to continue their trip to the Yonge line to go south. Similar situation on the SRT with people going west. It's disingenuous to suggest the trips don't have anything to do with downtown. It's a glorified overbuilt feeder route. Using numbers in that manner, you could rationalize building subways under every third Toronto street.
It goes without saying that most American BRT, LRT, and HRT systems are way overbuilt and operate at enormous losses that would make Rob Ford blush. You may gloss over this fact whenever you're talking about this subject but it's not something that can be ignored.
It's very strange that the Hurontario LRT is being so well received by certain people here who won't accept any less than subway under Sheppard when the projected demand of Hurontario in 2031 is well beyond Sheppard's wildest dreams.
Ansem
Banned
Then we should put streetcars everywhere...
That will definately solve transit problems and gridlock in this city...
Not once you brought up the fact that I was willing to compromise for LRT on Sheppard if it was rapid transit.
Miller advertized it as such, then we realized it wasn't...
Did you advocate to make SELRT faster with those proposals (longer stop spacing with parallele bus service and route to STC)
Or did you just want it as is because Miller said so?
With that, SELRT was still not the best solution but a compromise acceptable to alot of people, me included.
Just like yourself, Miller and his gang wouldn't hear and people got fed up with the attitude.
SELRT is dead because people wouldn't compromise...TTC wouldn't compromise.
They refused to run a local bus service, which led people to ask for a stop pacing of 400m. For the rest, they didn't care...AT ALL
I was against SELRT because it was not going to STC and was not rapid transit.
Did you advocate for these 2 compromise? So far I haven't seen it.
Dan416
Senior Member
If Sheppard were being built from scratch today, most people might choose LRT, sure. But it's all too convenient for LRTistas to ignore the fact that SHEPPARD ALREADY HAS A SUBWAY RUNNING UNDER IT.
Hurontario does NOT. And believe me, if there was funding for a Hurontario Subway, I'd be more than happy to take it (although I think it'd be overkill for Hurontario, and it wouldn't connect with the subway network).
A completed Sheppard Subway from Downsview to STC would allow people to easily travel all the way from Scarborough Centre to Vaughan Centre (transferring at Downsview), and everywhere in between (south on Spadina/University/south on Yonge/north to Finch/south along the Danforth line).
Metrolinx's plan is about connecting Urban Growth Centres. Sheppard would connect two directly (NYC & SCC) and quickly. Beyond STC/SCC you can have express buses.
Again, LRT is quite appropriate along many corridors (Hamilton, Hurontario, Finch) but not along others (Sheppard, DRL)
Asterix
Active Member
Just curious if you are aware of any demand numbers for traveling from STC to VCC, let alone those who would even consider taking a subway to do so?
There is a good test for demand at least from Yonge to Downsview - the 196 runs an express branch between the two with only a single stop at Bathurst. At peak times it runs every 6 minutes (as opposed to the every 2 minutes for the part of the route from Downsview to York U). Surely many (most?) of those people who would be choosing instead to go south via Spadina instead of the packed Yonge line would be taking advantage of that offering.
I wouldn't put a bus (with not all that many actually getting off at Downsview) every 6 minutes as justifying a subway, but then I'm not keen on gravy train spending where it isn't warranted.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Which could be switched to an LRT tunnel for the benefit of the savings realized on the rest of the line.
Both MCC and Brampton downtown are Urban Growth Centres.
Sheppard's requirements are nowhere near being in the same league as the DRL. It isn't even in the same league as SRT or Eglinton. I wouldn't be surprised if more people took the Yonge extension to Langstaff. Sheppard isn't in line with where most people are going. If you go to Don Mills station at the morning rush people are going to Yonge almost nobody is going to SCC. If you go to Sheppard/Yonge station at the morning rush the primary flow by far is heading south, not west on the Sheppard bus to Downsview, not north to the NYCC core, not east to Don Mills and SCC. If somebody arrives at a Warden North subway station which way do they go? Their destination is likely somewhere on the Yonge line between Union and Eglinton so really should most passengers deboard at Warden North station at all because a Warden & Eglinton station provides quicker access to midtown, and the Warden station on the Bloor line provides more convenient access to downtown with an option of transferring to the University line southward with little backtracking. Choosing to board the Sheppard Line at Warden for most people means backtracking.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Are you kidding? The AMC theatre and big box stores at VCC is where the bulk of people boarding at STC are likely to be going.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
On top of that, intersecting 3 GO lines as well, and with neither centre being anywhere near full buildout.
AoD
drum118
Superstar
No you don't put streetcars everywhere, you put the right technology everywhere. Then we are not putting streetcars on new routes in the first place.
If they built the Sheppard LRT ""CORRECTED"" and not compromised it for the name of ""TRAFFIC"" like St Clair was, it will operated as a rapid transit line.
If they do the same thing as St Clair, then LRT is dead.
Again why is there this need to go to STC when there is no real ridership demand to do so in the first place and not providing good transit to the residents east of Kennedy Road in the first? Don't you think the residents of Melvern should get the same quality of service like the rest of Scarbro’ considering they were promised that 30 years ago??
TTC has refused to look at BRT or more real express service far too long as well obtaining artic's for most heavy travel routes.
Even thought I don't support a subway on Sheppard at this time, my master plan shows a Subway running on it from Pickering to the airport at some future date.
At the end of the day, you have a dollar to spend that is to cover your rent/house, food, taxes, travel, personal needs leaving a few cents to save for retirement. Now, how much of that retirement are you prepared to give up to have a first class subway where the ridership for it can be carry by an LRT in the first place? At the same time, why build an LRT line when an BRT line can do it?
Labour along eats ups 80% of operating cost and therefore we know buses are very high cost ratio to operate on low ridership routes as well high ones in the first place.
Since you will have more buying power over your young life, how does that compare to other people who will not or will be on a fix income where every increase eats away at it that force them to give up on various items as well their life style to provided first class service to a few while the rest get nothing?
I support the SRT, Eglinton and the DRL as subway since they will have the higher ridership than the Sheppard line in the first place.
Dan416
Senior Member
Connecting Sheppard from Downsview to Yonge is about network connectivity and filling a gap in the network. Current demand doesn't necessarily dictate how that demand will change in the future when there's a continuous link there. It might not be the most pressing extension, but it fills a need for TTC operations and helps people out and especially coupled with the Sheppard extension to STC makes the Sheppard line as a whole that much more useful.
I don't see how anyone can say demand won't increase significantly for a full subway between Downsview and STC. Right now Sheppard is a stubway. Once it's finished, people will have more reason to take it.
ponyboy
Active Member
why is Ford going with a subway on Sheppard when these other lines (SRT, Eglington and DRL) make more sense?