Transit City Plan

[Dan416]

why is Ford going with a subway on Sheppard when these other lines (SRT, Eglington and DRL) make more sense?

SRT doesn't make sense. That's why everyone wants to get rid of it. Why not extend the Danforth line 2 stops to bring the subway to a logical terminus at STC rather than Kennedy?

Eglinton we don't know Ford's plan for. He's been silent on it through the whole campaign it seems.

DRL is a subway, so why wouldn't Ford support it?

 

[Asterix]

I don't see how anyone can say demand won't increase significantly for a full subway between Downsview and STC. Right now Sheppard is a stubway. Once it's finished, people will have more reason to take it.

Demand can certainly increase significantly many times from a bus every 6 minutes (plus those taking the Sheppard west bus) before it even begins to approach subway levels.

I don't disagree that it would make a more complete route, but if you only have a very limited supply of money and can only build a handful of km of subway (or three to four times that distance of LRT), then building that extension to Downsview would be nowhere near the top of my priority list, nor should it be for anyone who is big on efficient spending and use of resources.

 

[jje1000]

DRL is a subway, so why wouldn't Ford support it?

Way too expensive. Taxpayers come first, you know!

 

[Dan416]

Demand can certainly increase significantly many times from a bus every 6 minutes (plus those taking the Sheppard west bus) before it even begins to approach subway levels.

I don't disagree that it would make a more complete route, but if you only have a very limited supply of money and can only build a handful of km of subway (or three to four times that distance of LRT), then building that extension to Downsview would be nowhere near the top of my priority list, nor should it be for anyone who is big on efficient spending and use of resources.

I don't disagree that it's not a top priority. I've stated my priorities many times over the years.

1. DRL
2. Danforth to STC
3. Eglinton

 

[Inkarnate]

Woohoo, haven't posted anything serious for a while.

Frankly, I'd just be happy if the TTC was more organized with their planning. Building the Sheppard subway, but cancelling over half of the proposed subway, then proposing and starting to build an LRT line on it, then cancelling it in favour of something similar to the original plan...why can't they ever do things right the first time? Jeez.

Also, SOME line better get built on Eglinton. What a traffic nightmare.

 

[drum118]

If Sheppard were being built from scratch today, most people might choose LRT, sure. But it's all too convenient for LRTistas to ignore the fact that SHEPPARD ALREADY HAS A SUBWAY RUNNING UNDER IT.

Hurontario does NOT. And believe me, if there was funding for a Hurontario Subway, I'd be more than happy to take it (although I think it'd be overkill for Hurontario, and it wouldn't connect with the subway network).

A completed Sheppard Subway from Downsview to STC would allow people to easily travel all the way from Scarborough Centre to Vaughan Centre (transferring at Downsview), and everywhere in between (south on Spadina/University/south on Yonge/north to Finch/south along the Danforth line).

Metrolinx's plan is about connecting Urban Growth Centres. Sheppard would connect two directly (NYC & SCC) and quickly. Beyond STC/SCC you can have express buses.

Again, LRT is quite appropriate along many corridors (Hamilton, Hurontario, Finch) but not along others (Sheppard, DRL)

If we were around as well when the Eglinton and Sheppard subway debate was around as to which one gets built first, Eglinton would won hands down and Sheppard would be LRT.

One of the great mistakes with the Sheppard Line was not starting at Downsview and then go east. By doing so, it would offer a better change of getting a seat to the city core even if it was an extra 5 minute trip to get to the Spadina Line.

Today I would build the Sheppard line west so it interline with the Spadina Line and not use that useless WYE design at Bloor for this interlining.

No way will Hurontario ever justify a need for subway in your life time. Today it sees 28,000 riders and by 2031, 80,000 riders. That can be easy handle by LRT even moving 5,000 at peak time. Considering Bloor was running mu cars in 1966, carrying 9,000 riders in mix traffic, why can't we do that today in an ROW?

Sorry, but I would invest money to convert the subway to LRT so it can run all the way across Sheppard from one end to the other end as well take it to the airport. I would even take it into Pickering allowing a seamless ride even with a branch line to STC.

 

[lafard]

Regarding the LRT vehicules ordered by Metrolinx for Transit City...

Wouldn't Bombardier be ok into making subway cars with that money instead?
Did they even started to design the LRT cars who won't be the same as the downtown streetcars?

They already built the new subway trains, they could start tommorow if they wanted. Wouldn't that be a good compromise to avoid the LRT vehicule cancellation fees?

No. Think about it; it doesn't take 4 years to get LRT vehicles because they do nothing for three years and then hurry to finish in the last year. In all likelihood they've already done much of the detailed design and perhaps even taken out some of the subcontracts. The TC cars are piggybacking on the city cars as well, so they're probably further along than a brand new design. Needless to say, conversion will not be free at this point.

OK, say we switch over. Are we buying them on a 1:1 basis? (182 cars)? Wow, that's twice the price of the Rockets. I suppose if you're a Ford supporter then you don't really care that you're paying 24 million dollars for a 12 million dollar train - in essense that's a third of a billion dollar penalty right there. Are we buying them at same cost as the Rockets? Then I ask you, what the hell are we going to do with 360 new subway cars? You might find a home for 30 of them on Sheppard and 50 on Eglinton, but.. yeah. Replace the T1 fleet while they still have 10-15 years of useful life left? That's very efficient.

Oh, and they'd be ready for delivery in 2014. An all subway extension platform would see basic extensions like BD and a short Sheppard extension in 2018; the full length Downsview to STC probably a few years later; Eglinton in its current form is scheduled to open in 2020 and a subway redesign would set that back another 3 years too. By then you can use 90 of your 360 subway trains, which have been sitting in a yard (that needs to be designed and built within 3 years), unused, for almost a decade at that point. Or maybe you're pawning off 300 perfectly good siubway cars for pennies on the dollar.

Basically, this is not a realistic proposal. Cancelling the LRV order will cost us dearly.

All told Ford will easily cost Toronto taxpayers half a billion dollars, and possibly much more.

If we're going to spend that much money we may as well spend it on converting the existing Sheppard tunnels to low floor operation and through-routing it into the full Rexdale-Malvern crosstown route.

 

[SimonP]

why is Ford going with a subway on Sheppard when these other lines (SRT, Eglington and DRL) make more sense?

Politics. Ford decided early on that his key to victory was Scarborough. He had Etobicoke locked up, and if he could get similar numbers in Scarborough he would win. Unfortunately for him he had much lower name recognition in the eastern part of the city. He thus opened an office out there, did tons of polling to find out what people there wanted, and made promises to try to appeal to it.

That is why his transit plan calls for two subways in Scarborough and nothing anywhere else. From a transit perspective it makes no sense, but it worked for Ford politically.

The good news is that now that the election is over Ford might back off from these purely political statements (like he did from his call to remove the downtown streetcars) and consider other options, like a LRT subway under Eglinton, despite his opposing it during the campaign.

 

[EnviroTO]

Average daily ridership (weekdays)

Yonge-University-Spadina (Toronto)
30.2 Km
32 Stations
714,210

Bloor-Danforth (Toronto)
26.2 Km
31 Stations
495,280

Chicago Red Line
37.7 Km
34 Stations
248,844

Chicago Blue Line
55.7 Km
33 4Stations
154,012

Brown Line
18.3 Km
28 Stations
98,307

Green Line
33.5 Km
29 Stations
65,156

Orange Line
20.1 Km
17 Stations
55,787

Sheppard Subway (North York-Toronto)
5.5Km --Not going Downtown
5 Stations
47,700

Purple Line
24 Km
19 Stations
39,799

Scarborough RT (Scarborough-Toronto)
6.4 Km
6 Stations
39,320

Pink Line
18 Km
13,461

Yellow Line
8.2 Km
2 Stations
4,980


Sheppard outperforms some of Chicago's line who are way longer and have more stations...without going downtown Toronto

What are you talking about? The Purple line is the same route as the Red and Brown line. The Pink line was built a long time ago as a branch of another line and most of the stations were decommissioned in the 50s and the only reason it operates now is because it already exists. The Yellow line runs in an abandoned rail corridor that takes trains to the car barn and has level crossings. None of the lines operate in a tunnel.

 

[SimonP]

Eglinton we don't know Ford's plan for. He's been silent on it through the whole campaign it seems.

I was at a debate during the campaign at York Memorial Collegiate. There Ford repeatedly said that he opposed the Eglinton line, saying that Toronto just couldn't afford it.

 

[Dan416]

I was at a debate during the campaign at York Memorial Collegiate. There Ford repeatedly said that he opposed the Eglinton line, saying that Toronto just couldn't afford it.

Hmm. That would be a problem.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Ugh, no shit, if you may excuse my language. Please, at least follow the f'ing news and read his materials before accusing the rest of us of being LRVistas, shall we?

AoD

 

[SimonP]

I don't see how anyone can say demand won't increase significantly for a full subway between Downsview and STC. Right now Sheppard is a stubway. Once it's finished, people will have more reason to take it.

You can't precisely predict demand, but you can get a pretty good idea. We know the density in that part of town and that it is lower than would typically generate subway level ridership numbers. We have commuiting patterns, the city has data on how many people travel between Downsview and STC each day. Those numbers again don't justify a subway. We can see what alternatives are present. Sheppard is just north of the 401, and in an area where over 80% of people own a car the 401 offers strong competition for anyone going east-west in that part of town. We also know what the city growth plan is, and it is moving away from the outdated node design that created STC. The intent is to build the city using the Avenues Plan that will see medium density spread across much larger areas.

 

[Dan416]

Ugh, no shit, if you may excuse my language. Please, at least follow the f'ing news and read his materials before accusing the rest of us of being LRVistas, shall we?

AoD

Well we'll just have to wait and see what the TTC comes up with for Ford.

 

[SimonP]

I was at a debate during the campaign at York Memorial Collegiate. There Ford repeatedly said that he opposed the Eglinton line, saying that Toronto just couldn't afford it.

Here is an article on that debate: "Ford's proposed cut of Eglinton transit line dominates debate "