Transit City Plan

[W. K. Lis]

Rob Ford has commented at his press conference today "For too long, the city has focused on transit only". That one comment shows how anti-transit Rob Ford really is. I hope the city councilors have noted his comment and will act accordingly.

 

[Crespire]

I find it amusing that It's downtown Torontonians/media that are screaming in Outrage...while Transit City was for the suburbs...

I posted this on the recent Globe infographic comparing the Transit City Plan with Ford's plan. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-lrt-vs-rob-fords-subway-plan/article1819941/)

The issue is that by building this subway line, you simply shuttle more people onto the Young Line, which means the system will have to deal with more volume. At the end of the day, a subway is capital intensive investment, and should be saved for places where we'll net the highest return. To this end, I feel that LRT would be a suitable method to make sure those in the east-end have adequate access to the system. Where we really should be building subways is downtown somewhere, and I think a plan similar to the 1985 DRT plan should be considered. (Here's the wiki page on it if you're not familiar with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Relief_Line) Extensions to the periphery of Toronto are useless political games if the capacity of the system is not increased by adding more lines.

In anycase, Ford's plan seems to lack foresight. At least the Transit City plan has the foresight to look ahead, and build capacity where it's likely needed (Eglington, Jane, Don Mills). Ford's plan seems to encourage more car traffic, while the Transit City plan seems to target access in the suburbs. To me, it seems that Transit City (while it may fall short of many specific goals) at least does a much better job of allocating infrastructure to where it's actually needed.

 

[Asterix]

... but then there's the pre-study, the government review, the pre-design, the tender for all of these ...

And when would all the public consultations be done? Or is the new mayor not interested in what people think of his specific plans since he already knows what everyone wants (subways, subways and more subways, at no extra charge)?

 

[EnviroTO]

I find it amusing that It's downtown Torontonians/media that are screaming in Outrage...while Transit City was for the suburbs...

Transit City was going to take people in other parts of the city to places they might actually go like the Science Centre, Airport, Zoo, to college, Midtown, Airport Corporate Centre, etc. The new plan takes us to Scarborough Town Centre and to be honest I have only been there once in my entire lifetime, tied with Fairview Mall. I have been to Eaton Centre, Sherway, Yorkdale Mall, Square One, and Pacific Mall far more often.

 

[Asterix]

As for those LRVs we won't be needing anymore, maybe if we ask Bombardier nicely they'll let us add on to our current Toronto Rocket order?

And run them where? The order is already big enough to cover the YUS line. Do you think the TTC should run six car Toronto Rocket gravy trains on a line that currently is fine with four car T1s? (Oh yeah, and where the existing stations need some extra cash to be brought up to six car platforms.)

 

[Calrissian]

Rob Ford has commented at his press conference today "For too long, the city has focused on transit only". That one comment shows how anti-transit Rob Ford really is. I hope the city councilors have noted his comment and will act accordingly.

OMG, because the biggest issue and challenge facing the GTA & Toronto is traffic and congestion, and it gets worse every year.. and his solution is to take the focus off it? Brilliant!

And why is Karen Stinz sitting on her thumbs while Ford (without council's backing) is taking funds away from Eglinton for these 2 subways for 2015? Hopefully, council stands up against this.... hehe, this whole thing is almost comical. Hey maybe when they're done building these 2 useless subways in 2035, they can strip them down and rebuild them again as maglev trains by 2060? And then flying trains after that in 2100? and then the rest of burbs and DT can never have any form of rapid transit!

Toronto, you are in big trouble.

 

[Calrissian]

Transit City was going to take people in other parts of the city to places they might actually go like the Science Centre, Airport, Zoo, to college, Midtown, Airport Corporate Centre, etc. The new plan takes us to Scarborough Town Centre and to be honest I have only been there once in my entire lifetime, tied with Fairview Mall. I have been to Eaton Centre, Sherway, Yorkdale Mall, Square One, and Pacific Mall far more often.

+1... That was real coverage. Valuable to a good portion of the population of Toronto. This is useless to anyone not in that sparse corner of the city. Again, if this passes (which is doubtful) its one of the biggest wastes of tax dollars since the original sheppard subway.

I wouldn't kill it, if the choice was that or nothing... but then again, my tax dollars won't be wasted on it for the next few years, anyway.

 

[Dan416]

+1... That was real coverage. Valuable to a good portion of the population of Toronto. This is useless to anyone not in that sparse corner of the city. Again, if this passes (which is doubtful) its one of the biggest wastes of tax dollars since the original sheppard subway.

I wouldn't kill it, if the choice was that or nothing... but then again, my tax dollars won't be wasted on it for the next few years, anyway.

Source?

Oh wait. That's right. There's no source for that because it's a belief unburdened by the need for facts, since no facts show Sheppard to be a waste or a failure.


As for the war on cars, it'd help if people posted THE WHOLE QUOTE. Ugh.

"For too long, the city has focused on transit only. We will expand our focus to include people who use transit but also motorists, commercial vehicle operators, cyclists and pedestrians," he said.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/12/01/toronto-ford.html#ixzz16unWfrxc

 

[Crespire]

How does everyone feel about a Queen East/West line? (Or at the very least, burying the streetcar route, similar to what they're doing @ Eglington?)

 

[Ed Drass]

More class chatter (from Sun editor)

<<snip

“I just told (TTC Chief GM Gary Webster) whatever we’re doing is going underground, so we’re going to build subways,†Ford told the media Wednesday. “I was elected on that mandate, and I’m going to deliver my promises to the taxpayers that subways will be built in the city.â€

Webster now has the task of designing the new blueprint.

“The mayor clearly refers to his plan as a subway plan, but the mayor’s sensitivity is operating LRT on the surface,†said Webster. “So we did have discussions about running the LRT underground and he seems receptive to that.â€

That could avoid the costly embarrassment of killing the Metrolinx deal to buy 182 light rail vehicles from Bombardier for $770 million.

So, if we’re looking underground, the most pressing need for a new subway is not on Sheppard Ave., heading east 8 km to the Scarborough Town Centre. Yes, Ford’s priority is a loop linking the Scarborough RT (eventually an extended Bloor-Danforth line, if you believe past Ford promises) with the Sheppard line.

For what reason, it’s not really clear.

The density along Sheppard Ave., even for the next few decades, would be far overserved by Transit City LRT cars on the surface. Why would you bury that line first, at a cost far greater than the $1.1-billion estimated in Transit City?" >>

Snipped from Granatstein's column:
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/c...s/rob_granatstein/2010/12/01/pf-16394566.html

Exactly how much subway can Ford build within his strict allowance from the province? Or... in an unexpected twist ... how much underground LRT?

Will the latter option genuinely be part of the TTC staff's assignment -- like, are we now talking conversion of the existing Sheppard stubway to LRT ... (Sorry. ) ?

Unless the feds suddenly want to shower gold onto a newly right-of-centre Toronto, can he build Sheppard as well as extend B-D (also underground?!) within the $3.1b figure?

And where does that leave Eglington? It seems the class has until January to chatter away.

-Ed

PS: Steve declared The Big Move dead. Cue the Fantasy maps thread.

 

[Eug]

The new plan takes us to Scarborough Town Centre and to be honest I have only been there once in my entire lifetime

Heh. Maybe if the underground extension of BD extends to Scarborough Town Centre, you'll have more chances to there!

Pacific Mall far more often.

Needed a new GSM phone or something?

---

Seriously though, I wonder what "Ford is open to underground LRT" really means.

 

[Dan416]

Okay it's not that difficult to decipher. Sheppard is clearly not going to be an underground LRT. That's just, um, STUPID. You extend the darned thing to STC and add a couple trainsets to it and voila, you're done.

Ford may be open to just keeping the Eglinton Crosstown LRT as is or just the tunnelled portion. And we use some of the new LRVs on it. The ones that were earmarked for SELRT and S(L)RT can go to Hamilton and Mississauga/Brampton.

How many vehicles doe Eglinton need?
How many vehicles does Hurontario/Main need?
How many vehicles does Hamilton need?
How many vehicles were earmarked for Sheppard?
How many vehciles were earmarked for converting the SRT?

Either way, the TTC has been asked to make it work, and so has McGuinty. Let's see what they can come up with by January.

 

[spaced]

So much frustration, where to start:

First off I have this feeling that Ford's ‘people’ want transit underground not to ride the subway but instead to drive their car unimpeded (I suppose in some kind of Futurama idealistic way). Frustratingly, this will place a proportionally high amount of resources (initial cost and operating costs) to a small, medium density part of the city—this neglect of the rest of this city will only lead to more traffic and congestion. Quite ironic—or maybe just plane stupid. It’s also frustrating that the Shepard LRT was the weak link in the TC plan but mostly because the Shepard Subway was a poor decision more so than the other way around. Of course we want subways, who wouldn’t, but it’s not feasible. We will bankrupt the TTC and the city if we had to operate a DLR and subways stations in every corner of the subburbs. This city is more LA than it is Manhattan and we don't have the resources close to either. How is Fords direction stopping the wasteful spending? Wasn’t that Ford’s primary mandate: the Gravy Train? Not that I would expect rationalism or facts out of Ford.

This secondary subway ‘mandate’ was Smitherman’s plan too—so it seems that Toronto is just doomed to be a city of congestion.


McGuinty is in a sticky spot now especially since Ford is so popular that if he doesn’t bend (at least a bit), it will look like he’s against the majority of Toronto ('the people’). And that's a lot of voters.


All very frustrating.

 

[jeffreym]

spaced..

I agree to some extent, but at the same time Ford's primary argument during the campaign was about cutting spending. This subway plan will cause a lot of contract cancelation fees - the exact opposite of that mandate.

So, if council supports Ford, I expect his rather large 48% win will cause the province to fold to some extent (to what extent Toronto would be held responsible for the cancellation fees would be... interesting). On the other hand if council doesn't, particularly if they come from a cancellation=huge amount of taxpayers wasted angle (ie the authority that he was elected on), I think that McGuinty's continued support can be expected.

It's kind of funny that the money that would be wasted in cancelling is borrowed money - so the province would be paying interest on money people didn't even benefit from.

Your thoughts?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

does anybody remember if smitherman's transit plan required any new funding from the province?