kEiThZ
Superstar
^ You do realize that a Midtown GO would not connect Agincourt and Malvern without relocation of Agincourt GO station and some re-jigging?
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Yes, I realize that. And it'd make a bunch of sense to spend a little capital to make a seamless Stouffville-Midtown-Sheppard connection.
Having stations for both the Stouffville and Midtown lines at the same place would be very useful, and be ludicrously easy to connect both of them with Sheppard. It'd just have to start going Southeast at Kennedy.
Having stations for both the Stouffville and Midtown lines at the same place would be very useful, and be ludicrously easy to connect both of them with Sheppard. It'd just have to start going Southeast at Kennedy.
nfitz
Superstar
In your calcuations, you have Kennedy to Pearson as 1'15" in both. The only savings is the SRT extension to Malvern. Though currently you have STC to Kipling as 70 minutes - while the TTC published this as 61 minutes in their old Travel Time calculator. Hmm, that implies the savings is only 1 minute ...
but obviously your being general. Hmm, also the published TTC time from Kennedy to Pearson is 1'18" not 1'18"
that might make it faster to take the subway to Kipling (published time 48") and take the bus.kEiThZ
Superstar
That chart doesn't include the fact that STC to Kipling involves a transfer in the middle and an assumption that you catch the train at STC when you get there. Plus, when coming from Malvern, most of us get off at McCowan. At an estimated trip time of 62 mins, that assumes 8 mins to get on at McCowan and make the transfer at Kennedy. Budgeting 70 mins is a safe bet.
Hmm, that implies the savings is only 1 minute ...
Really shows you how useless the Eglinton LRT will be as a Crosstown route. Good as a local route but not for anyone who wants to traverse the city. The only saving in this scenario is that I wouldn't have to transfer at Kipling. I could sit on the LRT and forget myself for 78 mins till I reach the airport from Kennedy.
Hmm, also the published TTC time from Kennedy to Pearson is 1'18" not 1'18"
Unfortunately, it'll still be faster to take the subway for any destination not actually on any of the Crosstown LRT lines. The closer one gets to Kennedy, the greater the advantage of the subway over the LRT.
nfitz
Superstar
It does allow for that. There's a 4-minute allowance for a change. Given that the SRT runs at worst a 5.5" frequency, that gives you an a average wait of 2.25" ... and almost 2" to climb the stairs. Not unreasonable ... though anytime I do it, I hear the SRT pull away as I come to the platform. Perhaps they should have used 5 minutes ...
But overall, LRT for long distances along Eglinton doesn't gain much ... really we need higher speeds. And with about 23 km/hr for this LRT implementation, 30 km/hr for subway, 35 km/hr for SRT ... and 45 km/hr for the Vancouver skytrain implementation ... perhaps one should be petitoning Metrolinx for equipment with faster acceleration ... or grade-separating the Eglinton line to allow for the use of the 45 km/hr equipment.
Ed Drass
Active Member
Egregious example or no, it's a useful point
Expecting Transit City to whip us across town is unrealistic -- it does appear toward the local end of the local-regional continuum. But will GO or some 'SuperGO' get us to Pearson?
I rode with someone leaving the airport late last night. She forewent (?) a $50+ taxi ride and took the 192 and B-D toward Kennedy. She was reconsidering the plan to thereupon bus it to Eglinton and Markham, in favour of a cab...
She seemed to be aware of the GO bus, and there were no GO rail options for her. Are there ever going to be GO rail options for anyone, really? The Toronto Air Rail Link (TARL?) is going to be the only shot into Pearson by fast rail, and will anyone combine a GO ride with this?
Brampton to YYZ via transit, in 2015? From Guelph? Even Weston? Unless there is a good link from GO rail onto the Finch LRT to Pearson, it may be better to take a bus the whole way ... even after the Georgetown line eats up multimillions in funds.
From North York, or midtown? LRT vs. GO bus from YUS stops.
Scarborough and east GTA? GO to Union I guess, then TARL or if you want to keep taking GO, then get off at Eglinton and LRT...
West GTA, including Milton? GO bus to Pearson is all I can imagine, compared to all the way into Union or Bloor and back out via TARL.
Where is VIA in all this, for those beyond GTA? In another thread I suppose.
Expecting Transit City to whip us across town is unrealistic -- it does appear toward the local end of the local-regional continuum. But will GO or some 'SuperGO' get us to Pearson?
I rode with someone leaving the airport late last night. She forewent (?) a $50+ taxi ride and took the 192 and B-D toward Kennedy. She was reconsidering the plan to thereupon bus it to Eglinton and Markham, in favour of a cab...
She seemed to be aware of the GO bus, and there were no GO rail options for her. Are there ever going to be GO rail options for anyone, really? The Toronto Air Rail Link (TARL?) is going to be the only shot into Pearson by fast rail, and will anyone combine a GO ride with this?
Brampton to YYZ via transit, in 2015? From Guelph? Even Weston? Unless there is a good link from GO rail onto the Finch LRT to Pearson, it may be better to take a bus the whole way ... even after the Georgetown line eats up multimillions in funds.
From North York, or midtown? LRT vs. GO bus from YUS stops.
Scarborough and east GTA? GO to Union I guess, then TARL or if you want to keep taking GO, then get off at Eglinton and LRT...
West GTA, including Milton? GO bus to Pearson is all I can imagine, compared to all the way into Union or Bloor and back out via TARL.
Where is VIA in all this, for those beyond GTA? In another thread I suppose.
Dan416
Senior Member
Expecting Transit City to be faster than subway might be unrealistic. But speed should be an important factor. The speed for on-street operations is just not worth the cost in my opinion. The Eglinton tunnel is great, but you get out of the tunnel and are suddenly stopping at red lights. The stop spacing outside of the tunnel isn't even that bad from what I recall. But if only it were done properly it could be a lot faster. Yes it'd cost a bit more, and might make Eglinton a little less European than the TTC is wet dreaming itself about, but it'll be far more attractive to people if its fast.
kEiThZ
Superstar
My point in raising this scenario is to show the flaw behind those who sell the virtues of LRT as a cheap replacement for a subway. After all, why call it a 'Crosstown' route if you don't intend for any riders to take it across town? Either Miller, Gimabrone and gang are being deceitful and they secretly know that the line is biased towards the "local end of the local-regional continuum" or they really do drink their own Kool Aid and think this line is a cheap replacement for a subway. I'd love to know which it is.
Sure, GO has a role in regional transit. And if that's the hole in the picture, than it's a valid question to ask why we are relying on the TTC to build 'Crosstown' routes? Shouldn't that be GO's job? Eglinton West subway has morphed into an Eglinton Crosstown LRT, seeking to go well beyond local needs. Perhaps, if GO is better suited to develop crosstown routes, we should cut Eglinton down to its old Eglinton West function and shovel off the left over funds to GO so it can develop real Crosstown routes.
Sure, GO has a role in regional transit. And if that's the hole in the picture, than it's a valid question to ask why we are relying on the TTC to build 'Crosstown' routes? Shouldn't that be GO's job? Eglinton West subway has morphed into an Eglinton Crosstown LRT, seeking to go well beyond local needs. Perhaps, if GO is better suited to develop crosstown routes, we should cut Eglinton down to its old Eglinton West function and shovel off the left over funds to GO so it can develop real Crosstown routes.
UD2
Active Member
Maybe. If we don't live in a political world. But we do. And Miller, in this case, had won his money and support. So the show now belong to Toronto, and thus, TTC.
TTC Projects -> votes bought in Toronto
Go Projects -> have a huge 905 ring to it. Doesn't matter where it's served.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Even if Eglinton was a subway, it wouldn't do a heck of a lot for 'crosstown' trips. The B/D line already goes crosstown, and ends up a paltry 4km from Eglinton after starting in the same spot, intercepting the same riders. There's absolutely nothing on Eglinton between Yonge and the airport that anyone would be travelling longish distances to get to...the airport itself isn't even on Eglinton and the line has to be run a decent length to get up there.
nfitz
Superstar
Really, to have any impact - instead of looking for the Eglinton Line to move you from Kennedy to Pearson in 20 minutes ... what we need is the GO Crosstown line ... that could whisk you from a station in Morningside Heights to a station where you could transfer to the airport exress, via Summerhill. Metrolinx has this as part of the 15-year plan ... but even in the 25-year plan it's peak-service only.
Would there be enough demand to support express rail from Agincourt to somewhere in the West via Summerhill today?
Would there be enough demand to support express rail from Agincourt to somewhere in the West via Summerhill today?
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Rainforest
Senior Member
If it runs frequently, stops at major transfer points, and connects to the airport, then there should be quite a bit of demand:
- Midtown, north-east, Scarborough, and northern Yonge to the airport
- Downtown to the airport (those who do not want to pay $20 for TARP)
- North-east to downtown via Summerhill (unless Stouffville line gets frequent express)
- North-east to York U via Dupont
- Trips between any two points that are > 15 km apart, but each has a short local link to a Crosstown GO station.
The issues are competition from freight / cost of adding tracks, the corridor width, and the connection between the Crosstown line and the Brampton / Georgetown line.
ShonTron
Moderator
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BT has been offering the half-hourly 101 Airport Express now, every day late except Sunday (which was planned, but not implemented for Sept.). GO also has a more expensive, hourly airport route for years.
With a better schedule (and about as fast from Bramalea City Centre), smaller fare and full transfers at Steeles and BCC with other BT routes, it does the job very well.
doady
Senior Member
It is really interesting this talk aobut the airport connection and Eglinton. In the Transit City plan does label Eglinton as a crosstown line as Keithz point out and with a connection to both Mississauga Transit and the airport, which all certainly belong in 'regional' end of the 'local-regional continuum' also. It should be noted that the Mississauga Transitway, which the Eglinton LRT will directly connect to, is a regional transit project and will be used by a large number of GO bus routes as well. So the Eglinton West corridor does certainly have very strong regional significance and the potential to improve transit for not only people in Toronto but also Mississauga and across the GTA as well, and so building it as an on-street LRT is just a waste of money, no matter how cheap it is.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
As Rainforest pointed out, there is tons of potential demand. In fact with fare integration, a line like this could turn our current transit paradigm on its head. It would truly become like a European (s-bahn type) system. Why would someone from Scarborough spend an hour taking a bus, the SRT, and two subways to get to Union when they could walk or bus to a station, take one train to Summerhill/North Toronto and subway to Union. One less transfer and 10-15 mins less travel time.
Like I said, GO is actually the missing link in regional transport planning. Transit City should have been planned around improving GO and integrating fares between GO and the TTC. Instead we get a Crosstown route that won't be any faster across town than anything already in service. It might actually be faster for some Eglinton residents (depending on how far they are going) to take the Bloor-Danforth line across town!