Transit City Plan

[Disparishun]

Like I said, GO is actually the missing link in regional transport planning. Transit City should have been planned around improving GO and integrating fares between GO and the TTC.

This is a great point -- agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Dan416]

As Rainforest pointed out, there is tons of potential demand. In fact with fare integration, a line like this could turn our current transit paradigm on its head. It would truly become like a European (s-bahn type) system. Why would someone from Scarborough spend an hour taking a bus, the SRT, and two subways to get to Union when they could walk or bus to a station, take one train to Summerhill/North Toronto and subway to Union. One less transfer and 10-15 mins less travel time.

Like I said, GO is actually the missing link in regional transport planning. Transit City should have been planned around improving GO and integrating fares between GO and the TTC. Instead we get a Crosstown route that won't be any faster across town than anything already in service. It might actually be faster for some Eglinton residents (depending on how far they are going) to take the Bloor-Danforth line across town!

Eglinton will be subway-speed in the tunnelled portion according to the TTC planning documents. And it will be underground for a good portion. With it being one-ride, I think it'll be faster than going to B-D and taking the subway :S

But I agree the on-street portion could use a bit more creative thinking on the TTC's part.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Except that the TTC itself is suggesting average speed of 26 kph which yields travel time of 1hr 18 mins....not faster than the Bloor-Danforth line.

 

[UD2]

Like I said, GO is actually the missing link in regional transport planning. Transit City should have been planned around improving GO and integrating fares between GO and the TTC. !

again. if we lived in a world without politics, then I would also wholeheartly agree. But we don't.

 

[GraphicMatt]

^ Except that the TTC itself is suggesting average speed of 26 kph which yields travel time of 1hr 18 mins....not faster than the Bloor-Danforth line.

Latest document posted in the Eglinton LRT thread says 30 for the underground section.

I think this average speed stuff is merely guesswork, anyway. Regular headways are more important. I'd rather wait 5 minutes for a train that travels 20km/h than 30 minutes for a train that travels 30km/h.

 

[kEiThZ]

Latest document posted in the Eglinton LRT thread says 30 for the underground section.

I think this average speed stuff is merely guesswork, anyway. Regular headways are more important. I'd rather wait 5 minutes for a train that travels 20km/h than 30 minutes for a train that travels 30km/h.

The 26 kph is the average for the whole line. It's great for those who live/work along the one third of the line that's underground. But for everybody else, the Eglinton LRT will only be marginally faster than the bus service it's replacing (and maybe not with the same headways). It's the same situation as Sheppard East. As nfitz pointed out, this average speed means 1 hr and 18 mins from Kennedy to Pearson. At best, the LRT will only be a handful of minutes faster than going to Kipling and taking the Pearson Express, with the savings coming from the fact that Eglinton LRT will be 4km north of Kipling station and the lack of a transfer. But there's a real risk that the LRT could work out slower than the combination of the Bloor-Danforth line and the Pearson Express.

Aside from that, it's dishonest to only point out the speed of the tunnelled portion when discussing travel for any significant distance along Eglinton. As an alternative to Bloor-Danforth for example (and this is really how the LRT boosters are selling it), it won't do much for east-enders (unless you're bound for a station north of Eglinton). Ditto, on the west end as well, where Bloor-Danforth will still be faster for any significant length of travel.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I think this average speed stuff is merely guesswork, anyway. Regular headways are more important. I'd rather wait 5 minutes for a train that travels 20km/h than 30 minutes for a train that travels 30km/h.

But I don't think an Eglinton subway or some other form of RT would use 30 minute headways. Off-peak it'd probably be 4-6 minutes like all the other lines.

 

[kEiThZ]

again. if we lived in a world without politics, then I would also wholeheartly agree. But we don't.

What politics is impeding the improvement of GO? Metrolinx holds all the cards here. They could have sent Miller, Giambrone et al. back to the drawing board to draw up a more "regional" TTC plan that included full integration with GO. They failed in their only essential task: ensuring regional integration. They are letting Toronto deploy billions to replace bus service with trams...and not even on routes that are the busiest (for example McCowan North in Scarborough). I still don't understand why they caved. In suggesting that it's politics, are you suggesting that Miller is more politically powerful and potent than McGuinty? I am skeptical of that.

 

[kEiThZ]

But I don't think an Eglinton subway or some other form of RT would use 30 minute headways. Off-peak it'd probably be 4-6 minutes like all the other lines.

I believe peak headways were not going to be better than 5 mins. I haven't seen discussion on off-peak headways.

 

[nfitz]

I believe peak headways were not going to be better than 5 mins. I haven't seen discussion on off-peak headways.

According to the Transit City Bus Plan, the TTC has a minimum service level on the subway of six minutes (currently the worst frequency on the subway and SRT is 5.5 minutes). Presumably then, if there was an Eglinton subway, then the off-peak headway would be six minutes or better.

However, there are no plans for an Eglinton subway. But I'd think that given they have announced that many major bus routes will be put to a minimum frequency of ten minutes in fall 2010, then we'd be looking at a minimum frequency of ten minutes for the Eglinton RT when the first phase is scheduled to open in 2016 ... or at least when the final phase is scheduled to open in 2018.

 

[GraphicMatt]

But I don't think an Eglinton subway or some other form of RT would use 30 minute headways. Off-peak it'd probably be 4-6 minutes like all the other lines.

I have no idea what the headways are going to be - I was just using an extreme example to indicate that headways can be far more important than average speed.

 

[Eug]

Aside from that, it's dishonest to only point out the speed of the tunnelled portion when discussing travel for any significant distance along Eglinton. As an alternative to Bloor-Danforth for example (and this is really how the LRT boosters are selling it), it won't do much for east-enders (unless you're bound for a station north of Eglinton). Ditto, on the west end as well, where Bloor-Danforth will still be faster for any significant length of travel.

Perhaps, but that's fine. It will be a significant improvement for those who need to utilize the Eglinton corridor, and it will also be useful for those going to stations north of Eglinton.

If I had to go from Kennedy Station to downtown, it would be brain dead not to use Bloor Danforth.

 

[nfitz]

If I had to go from Kennedy Station to downtown, it would be brain dead not to use Bloor Danforth.

By the time that Eglinton is completed in 2018, you'd be brain-dead not to use the GO service from Kennedy to Union that takes only 16 minutes! Works right now in rush hour!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Kennedy station to downtown will always be best done for most people on the Danforth line.

 

[Eug]

By the time that Eglinton is completed in 2018, you'd be brain-dead not to use the GO service from Kennedy to Union that takes only 16 minutes! Works right now in rush hour!

True... ...except a monthly GO pass is $137, and some people will still need to have a TTC pass, which is another chunk of change on top of that...

...which is why I've said GO and TTC should be much better integrated.