Transit City Plan

[adma]

I find it amusing that (judging by some of the posts here) many people are too foolish to listen to the AM radio traffic reports while driving because of some bizarre disdain of AM.

It isn't like I don't--though I suspect there's an increasing "what's AM radio?" element among the under-30s out there. (And in an age of GPS, it isn't like the days aren't numbered for radio traffic reports, either.)

 

[Second_in_pie]

It isn't like I don't--though I suspect there's an increasing "what's AM radio?" element among the under-30s out there. (And in an age of GPS, it isn't like the days aren't numbered for radio traffic reports, either.)

Good advice: NEVER let a GPS tell you where to go during rush hour, especially if you happen to be in Los Angles.

But seriously, I don't see why radio traffic reports would be going away anytime soon. It's the easiest way to get free, quick, accurate, easy to access, and up-to-date information on traffic. Of course, if we're actually able to get a lot of people out of their cars (like we should be aiming for,) it'd become less profitable simply because there'll be less car drivers, or at least drivers during rush hour.

 

[kEiThZ]

Let's see how Transit City will help in this potential scenario: Me going to the airport

Today:

Bus to STC from Morningside Heights= 30 mins
STC to Kennedy on the SRT = 15 mins
Kennedy to Kipling on the subway = 55 mins
Pearson Express = 20 mins

2 hrs. Give or take a little.

In the future:

Bus to Malvern Town Centre = 15 mins
SRT to Kennedy = 20 mins
Eglinton LRT to Airport = 1 hr 15 mins (assuming an optimistic 26 kph average)

So I save a grand total of 10 mins after the billions that will be spent.

 

[Seesus]

So I save a grand total of 10 mins after the billions that will be spent.

10 mins times the entire ridership can be a good enough yield on a yearly basis for the big wigs trying to justify that this idea is tax dollars well spent - this is just another way to look at it, doesn't necessarily mean that I disagree with you on the total gain for an average tax payer.

 

[kEiThZ]

10 mins times the entire ridership can be a good enough yield on a yearly basis for the big wigs trying to justify that this idea is tax dollars well spent - this is just another way to look at it, doesn't necessarily mean that I disagree with you on the total gain for an average tax payer.

However, if we had been more judicious in our choices and spent the billions to make Eglinton a subway (which a third of it already is), and extended the Bloor-Danforth Subway to Scarborough Town Centre, in my scenario, I would have saved another 15-20 mins at least. That means I could travel from Morningside Heights to Pearson in 1.5 hrs. I would have been willing to sacrifice the Morningside and Sheppard LRTs for that (they would achieve nearly as much as the LRTs with cheap curbside bus lanes).

The point I am trying to make is that LRT is not appropriate for cross-town travel. There are routes it would be great (Finch West, Progress Avenue from Malvern to STC instead of SRT, the Waterfront, etc.)....even Eglinton if it was not designated as a Crosstown route. Unfortunately, an Eglinton Crosstown and Sheppard-Finch Crosstown will be too slow to really matter. I'll have too keep driving to the airport (or any west end destination really) after various levels of government have spent billions to try and convince me to do otherwise.

 

[sjc]

The problem you have is not so much the Transit City plan but that Pearson airport is far. For people living in Scarborough, it is really far.

 

[GraphicMatt]

If it's the TTC's job to get people from Scarborough to Pearson quickly, then what the hell is GO Transit for?

 

[Rainforest]

^ Indeed. Eglinton subway (instead of LRT) would shave 10 min off the aforementioned trip, but 1.5 h one way is a long journey still.

In contrast, direct GO service from Pearson on the Midtown line ("North Toronto sub") would reach any 416 station within 30 min. Then, if you had an option of taking a bus from Morningside Hts straight to a station across Malvern Centre, you would get to Pearson in 40 or 50 min dependent on the GO train schedule.

If you had to use a train station at Sheppard / Midland, the trip would be longer: 15 min on bus to Sheppard, 25 min on bus or LRT to the station, and 30 min to the airport ... for the total of 70 - 80 min. Even that is notably faster than what Eglinton subway could offer.

 

[doady]

Perhaps GO buses should take over service from Scarborough to NYCC and Downtown also, since even those destinations take too long to get to.

 

[drum118]

Think how fast it would be to have GO running service from Markham Rd to the airport using the crosstown line.

Again, how do you justify class one service from Pickering to the west side of Toronto for 5% of the total ridership of TTC while 75% of them get 3rd class service using the bus?? This is for TTC service.

To some who live in the far east reaches of Toronto, service sucks 100% today and I agree with you.

I Still say the BD needs to hit STC now and for get the SRT.

It takes me 2 hours to get to STC from the west end and I can deal with it.

To do what been said on this board, you will need $150 Billion to build the subway system you want.

Now where is that money going to come from and how do you do it in our life time???

 

[Rainforest]

Perhaps GO buses should take over service from Scarborough to NYCC and Downtown also, since even those destinations take too long to get to.

GO runs Oshawa - STC - York Mills - Yorkdale and Oshawa - STC - Yonge&Sheppard - Finch GO bus services, on 15 - 30 min headways each. But the lack of fare integration makes them unappealing for the trips from within Scarborough.

Scarborough to downtown would take too many GO buses. However, I've seen some "fantasy maps" that propose GO train service between Union and STC. That could be a tunneled and electrified eastbound spur, either off the Stouffville line, or off the North Toronto sub (connected to Union via the CP truck on the eastern bank of Don). IMO this option is worth considering.

 

[kEiThZ]

If it's the TTC's job to get people from Scarborough to Pearson quickly, then what the hell is GO Transit for?

Oh I have issues with GO too. As presently constituted it's not a regional transit service but a regional commuter service. However, the it is the TTC's job is to move travelers within the 416. The airport example shows that even traversing the breadth of the city (like from Scarborough to Etobicoke) would be rather time consuming on the new Crosstown routes. In fact, it would still be so time consuming, that it'll will be worthwhile to drive (even in traffic).

 

[kEiThZ]

Perhaps GO buses should take over service from Scarborough to NYCC and Downtown also, since even those destinations take too long to get to.

Or the TTC could have built curbside bus lanes and throw on double decker or artic Rocket buses for about 10-20% of the cost of SELRT.

 

[kEiThZ]

Think how fast it would be to have GO running service from Markham Rd to the airport using the crosstown line.

Again, how do you justify class one service from Pickering to the west side of Toronto for 5% of the total ridership of TTC while 75% of them get 3rd class service using the bus?? This is for TTC service.

To some who live in the far east reaches of Toronto, service sucks 100% today and I agree with you.

Obviously, I have picked an egregious example. But it shows how limited the travel time gains are from Transit City. If you pare back my example, and consider for example the travel time gain from Kennedy station to the Yonge line (ignoring whether its Yonge-Bloor or Yonge-Eglinton), the Eglinton Crosstown provides little to no benefit at all. I am not suggesting that there should be even better service for the 5% of crosstown commuters with no benefit for the other 75%. I am suggesting that network improvements should be targeted at improving travel times for all. A bus can be comfortable and quick. Ottawa's Transitway is a great example of this. And the upcoming York U-Downsview BRT is another decent example. Mild BRT through the use of curbside bus lanes would dramatically improve the quality of bus service along the proposed Transit City routes for a fraction of the price. The increase bus speeds, though not as much as LRT, would then complement the riders onward journey from a faster and more comfortable subway.

I Still say the BD needs to hit STC now and for get the SRT.

It takes me 2 hours to get to STC from the west end and I can deal with it.

To do what been said on this board, you will need $150 Billion to build the subway system you want.

Now where is that money going to come from and how do you do it in our life time???

Given the 10-12 billion (and rising) already budgeted for Transit City it seems the money is already there. It' about how it's being spent. Here's how I would reconfigure Transit City:

1) Change Eglinton to a subway.
2) Extend Sheppard to Agincourt GO. Build curbside bus lanes for the rest of Sheppard East and boost Rocket service to STC.
3) Use curbside bus lanes for BRT along Morningside, Kingston, Jane and Don Mills.
4) Extend the Bloor-Danforth subway to Scarborough Town Centre.
5) Replace the SRT extension from STC with LRT along Progress and the Hydro Corridor to Malvern Town Centre.
6) End Finch West LRT at Yonge. Build curbside bus lanes on Finch East.
7) No change to Waterfront West LRT

Given that a third of Eglinton is already a subway, it's quite obvious that all of the above could be achieved using the current TC and SRT Upgrade/Extension budget. Beyond this I would commence work on the DRL with the goal of extending the line along the Don Mills all the way to Finch.

Down the road (2025 onwards), some of the BRT routes (Sheppard East past Agincourt, Jane, Finch East, Kingston, Morningside) could be converted into LRT if there is demand for it (if additional capacity is required). I would also add new routes such as McCowan North, Vic Park and maybe even Kennedy in Scarborough. I dunno as much about the rest of the city but I am sure there are other valuable candidates in the west end that would also offer the same potential as these routes in Scarborough for LRT. And, of course, finish the Sheppard subway at STC.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^Sheppard East of Kennedy really has nothing worth providing even bus lanes. It might make sense to add in HOV lanes, but I'd prefer to focus the BRT on Finch East, where there's a lot more demand for such a service.

If Sheppard connected to STC, I still think that the Midtown line would best serve Malvern Town Centre. Nonstop from Agincourt to Malvern would probably be a lot faster than BRT from STC to Malvern. But I actually won't argue with a Progress LRT/BRT thing, which makes more and more sense the more STC gets built up.

The Waterfront West LRT should stop at Roncesvales. There's really no reason for it to go to the Ex to connect with the Harbourfront LRT, especially if the DRL comes around there.