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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Yup, a stubway that Lastman managed to pimp out and that cuts Sheppard bus service drastically, that staggers stations over the 2 km area and that has most underwhelming ridership sure qualifies.

Sweet, another voice of reason. People that actually live along the Sheppard catchment despise it yet alone anyone trying to incorporate it into their daily commute from afar.

Eglinton could be a heavily used subway line if built today, but other projects would completely cannabalize its ridership.

Or Eglinton cannabalizes Don Mills, Blue 22, Malvern while also serving the only 'through' corridor in Toronto. At the very least it'd outpreform Sheppard 'stubway', condos or no condos.

Where are they warranted? Downtown, Sheppard East, York U, Scarborough RT replacement, North Yonge are all crying out for subway lines. Other routes, like Eglinton and Finch West, would be well-served by light rail.

If only to say, "well we've built subways out to the middle of nowhere so we may as well find or create a somewhere to park trains into. " Two fatalistic attitudes about subway expansions: a) nothing can be original, all must be a piecemeal derivative of existing lines b) all nodes, real or imagined, must be linked by a single line that bypasses established density in favor of proposed well-wishes and opti-planning.
 
Sweet, another voice of reason. People that actually live along the Sheppard catchment despise it yet alone anyone trying to incorporate it into their daily commute from afar.

Or Eglinton cannabalizes Don Mills, Blue 22, Malvern while also serving the only 'through' corridor in Toronto. At the very least it'd outpreform Sheppard 'stubway', condos or no condos.

They don't despise it, they love it and use it.

5km of subway on Eglinton wouldn't outperform 5km of subway on Sheppard.
 
The Eglinton LRT will take some passengers away from the Bloor-Danforth subway who would normally transfer from buses that come from the north. I would. Currently, have to do a "U" routing, because of the congestion on Eglinton.
In fact, when I go to the Ontario Science Centre, I use Jane down to the Bloor-Danforth over to Pape and take the Don Mills bus up. I would have to transfer the same number of times as well.
 
In the hilarious but disturbing fantasies of people like Salvius, people are actually upset that a bus service was cut and replaced with a subway! If the bus was so great, why did ridership in the corridor more than triple after the subway was built? Why did development explode after it was built?
 
Indeed. The "transit on Shepherd was better without a subway" canard is one of the real gut-busters to come out of some of the wackier elements of the transit advocacy community.
 
In the hilarious but disturbing fantasies of people like Salvius, people are actually upset that a bus service was cut and replaced with a subway! If the bus was so great, why did ridership in the corridor more than triple after the subway was built? Why did development explode after it was built?

It's hilarious but amazing how you misread me:

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=51


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“An assessment of the financial performance of the 85 Sheppard East bus route, west of Don Mills Station, shows that the route has an unacceptable financial performance during all operating periods.”

The passengers per dollar figure (if you don’t understand this, read my post about Poor Performing Routes) ranged from a low of .05 to a high of .22. The target is .23.

“Because ridership … is now relatively low and, because this service has a poor financial performance, the route will now be considered for possible service reductions.”

For those of you who read about the 33 Forest Hill bus, its passengers per dollar figure ranges respectably from .14 to .17. We obviously need more Nannies on Sheppard East.

The situation on Sheppard East is similar to that on Yonge north of Eglinton. The local traffic does not “justify” a decent service, and so for all practical purposes, service vanishes. This is a cautionary tale for all who would like the TTC to build a subway under their street. Be sure that you live near a station.

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Obviously, subway service is preferable, but 2 km gaps are seriously problematic and are inadequate to serve the need. Sure, if I lived 5 minutes from it, I'd find Sheppard great. It's a crappy, politically-motivated subway on the road to nowhere. Of course, it has spurred some development, and has managed to kind of function like a pure commuter line. It's not a successful subway, however, and I can think of many, many better places where the subway should have gone.

Also, unimaginative, instead of talking about how the corridor TRIPLED, can you tell me what the total ridership for the Sheppard subway is?

---

And yes, calling a politically motivated stubway a failure sure is wacky!!! I never claimed transit on Sheppard was better without the subway, so I'd rather people not put words in my mouth.
 
The poor performance of the Sheppard East bus west of Don Mills is clear proof that almost everyone along the corridor finds the subway extremely useful...the only gap of any significance is at Willowdale, where the Willowdale bus exists to take people who don't want to walk a few hundred metres to Yonge & Sheppard. If development takes off, a Willowdale stop could always be added later. There's a smaller gap around Shaughnessy...but the several hundred people that would use that stop are insignificant. The needs of hundreds of thousands must always outweigh the needs of hundreds, or Toronto is doomed.

In planning documents and on the internet, people cannot walk for more than 5 minutes...they hit the perimeter of that 500 metre circle and just curl up into a spleeny ball and weep. In reality, though, lots of people are overjoyed that by walking for 2 or 3 more minutes, they can get on a line that saves them 10.

And it's triggered more than just "some" development - if you include the whole/eventual corridor from Downsview to STC, that's tens of thousands of new residences.
 
Yup, a stubway that Lastman managed to pimp out and that cuts Sheppard bus service drastically, that staggers stations over the 2 km area and that has most underwhelming ridership sure qualifies.

Uh, this is what you said. The subway sucks because it cut the bus service drastically. Of course it cut the bus service! It replaced it with a subway. And that's a very good thing.

People are more than willing to walk a little further to get the reliability, speed, and comfort of a subway route. The more-than-tripling of the ridership in the corridor attests to it quite clearly.

Sheppard has great ridership. What is it? Around 50,000 a day on a 6km line? That's fantastic by any world standard for outer-urban routes, and in its first few years of operation no less. That's way higher than many American subway lines of five times the length, and higher than the outer 6 kilometres of many European routes. It's a big success, and would be a far bigger success if it was completed to Scarborough Centre, connecting the two major centres, Consumers Road, and all of the north-south bus routes that make Finch so busy.

Yeah, you know what, someone who considers himself a transit advocate calling a major transit investment a bad thing, even though he admits it improved transit in the corridor, is indeed wacky.
 
The only reason the Sheppard East bus sucks is because the subway is too short. The subway is also too short draw riders away from Finch.

If anything subways should be designed to replace bus or streetcar routes. If the Spadina subway had been designed to replace the Dufferin or Bathurst buses, it would have been much busier.
 
Uh, this is what you said. The subway sucks because it cut the bus service drastically. Of course it cut the bus service! It replaced it with a subway. And that's a very good thing.

Uh, READ again in entirety!

"Yup, a stubway that Lastman managed to pimp out and that cuts Sheppard bus service drastically, that staggers stations over the 2 km area and that has most underwhelming ridership sure qualifies."

If you're not near a station, it can be a long walk... And that's not neither here nor there, nor does it say I think buses served Sheppard better!

People are more than willing to walk a little further to get the reliability, speed, and comfort of a subway route. The more-than-tripling of the ridership in the corridor attests to it quite clearly.

Walking a kilometer to the subway line is hardly convenient, and that's assuming you live on Sheppard. There won't be much avenueisation here, that's for sure. And if scareberian is right that there isn't much demand outside those 2km stations, that just about makes the stubway impossible to defend. Subways should be a bit more than commuter lines, although that's precisely the nature of Sheppard.


Sheppard has great ridership. What is it? Around 50,000 a day on a 6km line? That's fantastic by any world standard for outer-urban routes, and in its first few years of operation no less. That's way higher than many American subway lines of five times the length, and higher than the outer 6 kilometres of many European routes. It's a big success, and would be a far bigger success if it was completed to Scarborough Centre, connecting the two major centres, Consumers Road, and all of the north-south bus routes that make Finch so busy.

Ah, but it was NOT completed to STC, and since Mr. Lastman left the building, there was no earthly plan that was going to suggest that extension. We can all draw pretty little subway maps all over the city, but unless there is a politician that's going to benefit big time from an extension, nothing happens, and it's the reason why we're going to get a subway that's going to run in the middle of a field.

The service runs 43,000 trips, still below its INITIAL projection, in an incredibly peak-oriented fashion (off peak usage remains incredibly underwhelming) and little bi-directional demand. That is one VERY expensive commuter line.

Yeah, you know what, someone who considers himself a transit advocate calling a major transit investment a bad thing, even though he admits it improved transit in the corridor, is indeed wacky.

Just because it improves transit doesn't mean that it's a good investment. Indeed, VCC boondoggle is going to massively improve transit in Vaughan. Massively. But it's an absolutely terrible investment. As much as I think Sheppard was a mistake, it pales in comparison to subway in the field.

I am not quite as enamored with the LRT at Steve is, and I do think Sheppard should be finished now that's it started. It won't be though because no political interest cares about that option. I think DRL is desperately needed, but once again, there's nobody who can effectively wrangle that much money. Having said that, vast, vast swaths of city have no transit service to speak of. Much of Transit City addresses that.
 
According to Steve Munro, the 6 km of Sheppard carried already carried about 12 million per year back in 2003. The entire L train in New York City, according to Wikipedia, carried 30 million after a major increase in recent years. A few years ago, the whole route -- over 20 km -- carried 16 million. Yet few would call New York's subways a failure.

Wow. How can I be any clearer. You said one of the reasons the subway is bad was that it resulted in reduced bus service. I think that the reduced bus service is quite fine, since the subway service is vastly superior. Moreover, people are obviously willing to walk a little further to a subway stop, considering the ridership in the corridor tripled.

I'm not sure how serving dense nodes at stops makes it a "commuter line," nor am I sure how it's a bad thing, but dense nodes around subway stations with stable neighbouroods elsewere is exactly the goal of the official plan.

We can all draw pretty little subway maps all over the city, but unless there is a politician that's going to benefit big time from an extension, nothing happens, and it's the reason why we're going to get a subway that's going to run in the middle of a field.

The lines people spout just drive me mad. Attacking politicians is as easy as shooting a piece of paper that's taped to the front of your gun, but if this is true, how is it that we're getting money for $10 billion worth of streetcars? Could it be that the only politicians willing to push for subways are the politicians from places you don't like? Wrangling money's not hard when the province is writing $15 billion worth of cheques to fund every single project that was on the table. All it took was asking. Instead, Toronto fought new subway lines kicking and screaming. Case in point: the refusal to even consider subways as an option in the Sheppard East EA after the Province's agency (remember, they're the one cutting the cheques) asked them to.
 
All transit lines in the city are rush hour commuter-heavy, except for maybe the Spadina streetcar. Everything outside the old city of Toronto is entirely commuter-based. But, we have to plan and build for the rush hour. An unending parade of buses can barely carry all the people away from Don Mills station during the pm rush. How can there be substantial two-way travel on a 5km line? There'd be tons of it, though, were the line to be extended.

Read between the lines, salvius...if 99% of people find the station locations accessible and useful, the other 1% should be ignored, not championed as proof that the line should never have been built.
 
Subways should be a bit more than commuter lines, although that's precisely the nature of Sheppard.

And yet the Sheppard subway has a higher ridership than GO's Lakeshore East line, a REAL commuter rail line which is more than 10 times its length.
 
Obviously, subway service is preferable, but 2 km gaps are seriously problematic and are inadequate to serve the need. Sure, if I lived 5 minutes from it, I'd find Sheppard great.

Wouldn't the question be how many people living off of Sheppard previously used the bus and now don't use transit because the subway is too far and the bus service isn't good enough anymore? The area along Sheppard between Yonge and Don Mills (especially Bayview to Leslie) is pretty upscale. Were they using the bus before?
 
I wonder how much it would cost to add a Willowdale station...transit.toronto says North York Centre cost $25 million back in 1987.
 

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