Transit City Plan

[scarberiankhatru]

You'd think getting a mess of nine transit routes off the streets, hence creating a street culture through Uptown was a good thing.

Off the streets? They'll be acquiring part of the street for the ROW.

Sometimes we get too clincial about projections and predictions and comparisons to other systems instead of letting the lines speak for themselves. Could anyone have forseen what Bloor-Islington or Yonge-Empress is today due to their stops? I rest my case!

You just rested my case, too...those are subway stations!

 

[nfitz]

Off the streets? They'll be acquiring part of the street for the ROW.

Why do you need a ROW on Eglinton, when the LRT will be in a tunnel underneath the road? Honestly, your arguments are getting a little on the bizarre side - either that or your not taking the time to actually understand what the person you are replying to is saying.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yeah, I was on the phone while reading/responding, paying zero attention to Dentrobate's post...nobody reads these endless transit threads, anyway. You should come up with some of your own arguments, though!

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Scarberian, what's the point of creating a new thread for the same-o, same-o that'll probably be moved to this thread anyway? At least give my opinions a chance, like I've done yours. Yes Nfitz, bizarre indeed .

Off the streets? They'll be acquiring part of the street for the ROW. Streetcars on Morningside will not create a [I think you mean streetcar] culture...the idea is laughable.

At Yonge Eglinton? There's a grand avenuezation initiative in store for Eglinton Avenue that'll transform the corridor into another St Clair West, Kingsway or Roncesvalles. The subway only enhances this fact. I seriously doubt the surface of Yonge Eglinton is at all affected by a subsurface LRT, if only to scale back some routes away from Eglinton Stn to make the area more pedestrian-friendly.

Believe it or not, subways don't destroy niche communities, they garner them greater status and traffic= $. On the Amazing Race a few seasons ago they featured the house where the Beatles penned Strawberry Fields. It turns out there's a subway station directly serving that heritage spot. Toronto on the other hand throws away the unique oppurtunity of serving Casa Loma directly, despite having the Spadina Line running right beneath.

I'm not really concerned about Morningside as I think that's an extreme example to discredit the validity of my POV. I've said before no further than West Hill (or at most UTSC) is logical for that part of the world as Sheppard/Morningside only fringes Malvern anyway and 116 bus stops already exist at 350m gaps with limited density~ West Hill Collegiate> Morningside Park?> Ellesmere> Military Trail> Hwy 401> Milner> Sheppard.

You just rested my case, too...those are subway stations!

There's many issues at stake building subway lines (note I say subway because technically that's what EC is through Keele-Laird) not only civic responsibility to urban poor but revitalization of neighborhoods. If we're too silly to not just get past what type of technology's being used, let's just bury every surface route carrying over 30,000 daily and call them subways.

But according to the doctrine behind Transit City, it's a bad thing. It doesn't run in the median of the street, and it has less-frequent underground stops, both of which are to be avoided if at all possible.

Wouldn't less frequent underground stops not be a good thing? Subwaylike spacing affords zipping across the city within an hour. Treating TC, speciafically EC underground stations like subway terminii could transform the surface network on Eglinton. What was once a gangway of 30+ routes can be dividend to proximal TC stops, making Eglinton pedestrain friendly and minimising commutes. Leaside, for instance could annex off 51, 54, 56 and 88; Mount Pleasnt 74, 103 and 144, etc.

The far-out regions of Eglinton where LRT would run on the surface falls under the Richview and Golden Mile vast openness with development well aback from the street-front. Out there no one would miss a few hectares of land for ROW and stops could still be subwaylike spaced.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

What new thread? Stick to bashing Transfer City, not meta-comments. New threads for old arguments invariably kill the arguments...perhaps a moderator will euthanize the Transfer City debate

There's a grand avenuezation initiative in store for Eglinton Avenue that'll transform the corridor into another St Clair West, Kingsway or Roncesvalles. The subway only enhances this fact.

The tunneled portion of the Eglinton streetcar will, well, *be* tunneled because that stretch of Eglinton is already like St. Clair West and the others. As for Scarborough or Richview, nothing's guaranteed - look at Sheppard. Sheppard West is steadily avenue-izing with no subway in sight, but Sheppard East is resisting avenue-ization even after the subway's construction.

 

[salvius]

All of this is of course beside the point. Whether or not the Spadina extension route would be slightly above or slightly below the streetcar's theoretical maximum capacity, it still follows the new Toronto streetcar fan mantra of "Any route's a failure unless it's unpleasantly crowded from day one." God forbid any kind of growth takes place. Of course, the streetcar would never attract 100,000 riders a day. I really don't see a significant modal shift with a bus-on-rails that winds through intersections and requires the same inconvenient transfer.

It would be nowhere near the theoretical capacity.

The inconvenient transfer is going to have to happen some time or the other. Unfortunately, subway construction is going to have to end SOMEWHERE. We can build a kilometer of subway ever leap year, or we can have something relatively inexpensive and extremely upgradeable network in fairly quick order.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Ahh, "upgradeable"...why build it now when we can build it never?

 

[salvius]

^ indeed, lets clamour for subways everywhere in the city for a few more decades. How much km have we built since the Bloor line finished? How many riders has it served? Our subways everywhere chant has gotten transit improvement exactly nowhere.

*****

Thinking about it a bit more, however, I'd agree Sheppard should probably be finished as a subway, because there's no chance any of it will ever be converted to an LRT.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Go ahead and clamour for subways everywhere...I've never done so. MoveOntario's eleven digits worth of dollars would have paid for just about as many subway lines as are warranted, though.

Let's clamour for absolutely nothing but streetcars! 15,000 riders, 150,000 riders, it doesn't matter!

 

[salvius]

Go ahead and clamour for subways everywhere...I've never done so. MoveOntario's eleven digits worth of dollars would have paid for just about as many subway lines as are warranted, though.

Where are they warranted? And let's not forget that the subways, far more than any other mode, are a political football match, so where they are warranted and where they will go are two entirely different things. Hence, VCC.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Well, for a political football match, they made a great play with Sheppard!

 

[unimaginative2]

Where are they warranted? Downtown, Sheppard East, York U, Scarborough RT replacement, North Yonge are all crying out for subway lines. Other routes, like Eglinton and Finch West, would be well-served by light rail.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Eglinton could be a heavily used subway line if built today, but other projects would completely cannabalize its ridership.

 

[salvius]

Well, for a political football match, they made a great play with Sheppard!

Yup, a stubway that Lastman managed to pimp out and that cuts Sheppard bus service drastically, that staggers stations over the 2 km area and that has most underwhelming ridership sure qualifies.

Anyways, I shall have to stop this here, it's 3:26 AM and I have a 16 hour work day tomorrow. I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

salvius = Steve Munro.