Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[TOareaFan]

I did follow up with another question but, unfortunately, I could not hide/mask my frustration and I doubt there is a reply coming:

I take that bit back, ten minutes after posting the above, I did get a reply...which has led to a further follow up.

 

[gweed123]

Good digging TOareaFan. It would also be interesting to know what electrification would cost beyond what is being done to get ready for all-day two-way service. I.e. how much of the prep work for electrification is covered in that $4.9 billion price tag. Is it just the overhead wiring and electrical substations, or is there other track work that needs to be done beyond what is being done for the two-way service?

 

[innsertnamehere]

That $4.9 billion would not be spent on electrification, as only the Georgetown and lakeshore corridors are planned for electrification. Corridors like stouffville would presumably operate exactly like the lakeshore lines do currenty, with hourly diesel trains running in both directions.

 

[gweed123]

That $4.9 billion would not be spent on electrification, as only the Georgetown and lakeshore corridors are planned for electrification. Corridors like stouffville would presumably operate exactly like the lakeshore lines do currenty, with hourly diesel trains running in both directions.

I realize that, but I guess what I'm asking is for corridors like Georgetown (on which part of that $4.9 billion is being spent), how much additional work beyond what is being done for all-day two-way service would be needed for electrification (beyond the usual wires, substations, etc)? Is the work being done for all-day pretty much everything required for electrification besides the electrification itself? Or would there be additional non-electrical work required for electrification, beyond what is being done for all-day two-way?

 

[EnviroTO]

I was obviously being sarcastic when I reffered to using CMU under Eglinton. My point was that if there was no harm or pollution from these trains it wouldn't be a problem. In other words there clearly is an issue of pollution using diesel trains.

If you burn something with no ventilation you will eventually not be able to breathe. New things that burn should therefore be blocked because of the pollution problem, even if the total amount burned is reduced as a result? You wouldn't want to suck on the smokestack of the factory that produces the wire that will power electrified trains, therefore electrified trains should stop being built?

The people of Weston are going to bitch regardless, I get that part. I think what is making this so unbearable to many is that this train isn't public transit. It is certainly being paid for with public money but it is not gearted towards the local population. If it was then Metrolinx would not refer to the few who will use it as "guests". The TTC calls {and treats for that matter} a lot of things but guests isn't one of them.

It will be paid for by the public, will be no means be members only, will cater to the public who have luggage and would like a seat to the airport, and in its creation the bulk of the effort is improving the Georgetown corridor which will benefit GO Georgetown line commuters. It isn't local transit; it is express service with space for luggage and that costs more. The TTC also offers Downtown Express buses for twice the cost and that provides just a small time savings with a seat.

The OTrain in Ottawa is basically the exact same DMU as the UP express and there is far less outrage over it because it is part of the public transit system just as much as the bus is while the UP line has no connection to any of the public transit services in the GTA including GO.

UP Express is a heavy rail line, the line carries freight, the line is at grade or elevated (prior to the current projects to change that), involves adding 2 tracks, the trains will run express, and runs through densely populated areas. OTrain is doesn't meet crash worthiness for North American heavy rail, runs on a line that was abandoned with no other traffic, the line is primarily in trenches, valleys, and through green space, they added a passing track at a few stations, the trains go at a decent speed but nothing impressive, and runs through lightly populated areas. For OTrain there is no stink because it was a cheap implementation of infrequent trains through areas where there weren't many to complain or notice the traffic increase. To compare the two as somehow equal is crazy.

This is a Pan Am line and the province wouldn't give a damn if the whole line ended the day after the games do but then neither will Torontonians care either. I think what makes this even more embarrassing is that Toronto has the nerve to say that this will be the "greenest" games ever.

This line became a project in 2001. The Pan Am games have nothing to do with it existing. The Pan Am games are setting a deadline for opening day, but without the Pan Am games there still would be this project.

As far as electrification goes, Metrolinx says it will electrify the line in the future...............in the future in Toronto transit terms means between now and 2090.

Yes, that is what it means. Priorities will dictate when it occurs which is good because the Big Move 2008 projects that were to be implemented in 15 years (excluding the top few) are largely no closer to being implemented 5 years later and I think some of the priorities on there far outweigh the benefits of electrification on the Weston line. The Air Rail line project launched in 2001 and will be operational in 2015... that is how long a project which was the priority of the federal government took to get implemented, and the bulk of the items in the Big Move the federal government has shown no interest in contributing to. There isn't money just sitting around for this. Given unlimited funding there isn't a single politician that would turn down cutting ribbons for building subways all over the place, high-speed rail, etc.

This added to the fact that the line is great for the business class and tourists who are in town for the weekend but means nothing to the people who are actually paying for it. They get the honour of subsidizing the wealthy who can afford to take while the masses who can't afford to take it and those who live along the corridor or work at Pearson have to wait for another packed bus in the rain.

The tourist sector and the business class employ a lot of people. All those businesses downtown have options, and tourists also have options beyond Toronto's borders. Without knowing the recovery rate on the fares, estimating how much in taxes is collected by the people riding those trains I'm fairly certain that they are paying for it. The out-of-towers who will be buying food in restaurants, paying for hotel rooms, paying for entertainment will pay taxes that they are unlikely to recover through use of our education system, schools, social security, etc.

This whole thing would not be an issue if Metrolinx had been honest from the beginning and if the line was being built for Torontonians but neither is true.

Metrolinx had nothing to do with this at the beginning. What have they been dishonest about exactly? It was called Blue 22 back when only Transport Canada and private partners were involved. I think right from the start it was clear that the plan was a service that would run on the existing corridor with only a stop at Bloor and possibly Woodbine with no electrification planned. Since then it evolved into keeping a more streets open, a huge dig down in Weston, a huge dig down in Strachan, and private sector abandoning the project. When did anyone claim Blue 22 / UP Express was electrified local commuter transit?

 

[rbt]

Or would there be additional non-electrical work required for electrification, beyond what is being done for all-day two-way?

http://www.gotransit.com/electrific...y/docs/ElectricificationStudy_FinalReport.pdf

Take a look at Option #1 from the above report released December 2010. It lists off minimum requirements for electrification without considering requirements for a capacity boost.

I believe that in addition to grounding everything, there are still a handful of bridges which haven't been built between Kitchener and Brampton. They mention 11 bridges requiring work and I can only think of about 5 that have received work or are tendered but they also don't mention where those 11 are.

Electrification of the Georgetown corridor would include the following features:

• Provision of overhead catenary to electrify the route originating in Union Station and
  terminating at the Kitchener GO Transit station. The electrified revenue service route length
  is approximately 100.5 kilometres. The total electrified length is 114.7 km
• including the distance to get to the Willowbrook maintenance facility.
• Electric locomotives pulling 10 bi‐level cars with weekday peak service between Kitchener
  and Union Station. Off‐peak service, weekend and holiday service would operate between
  Mt. Pleasant GO Transit Station in Brampton and Union Station only.
• Electric Multiple Units (EMUs) in two car train consists operating at 15 minute headways
  17.5 hours per day (approx 05:00 am to 01:00 am) for the ARL.`
• Midday and overnight storage would be at Willowbrook, Georgetown and Kitchener with
  maintenance at Willowbrook.
• Nightly storage as well as all maintenance at Willowbrook yard.
• Provision of appropriate clearance for the OCS at all overhead structures.

Electrifying the Georgetown corridor includes Union Station and will also require:

• the grounding of structures, buildings, station platforms, fencing, pipelines, above‐
  ground fuel tanks and other utilities within 250m of the nearest rail, as required;
• modifications to the track to ensure compatibility with electrification, including track
  bonding and grounding to limit induced voltages and maintain safety;
• modifications to the signal system to immunize against the effects of electromagnetic
  interference; and
• the provision of additional equipment in the current control center to operate the
  electrification system.

GO could drop $10B on their track pretty easily and still not have fully grade separated, fully electrified, and frequent service (5 minute frequencies in rush hour) on all lines.

 

[TOareaFan]

The Union Station corridor requires substantial work still. This number includes the option of Bathurst station or undergrounding at least one line (likely Lake Shore) through the Union corridor. So, that's $1.5B.

Many sections of the line past the airport will require additional work including grade separations depending on how far you want to take frequent service.

Actual electrification is fairly cheap. Boosting the frequencies in a manner safe to drivers who don't like to stop for flashing lights is expensive.

Not sure grade separations are not (I don't think) just a thing about drivers not liking to stop....isn't there some Transport Canada law/regulations about once you have a certain number of rail crossings a day at any particular spot you have to grade separate?

 

[rbt]

Not sure grade separations are not (I don't think) just a thing about drivers not liking to stop....isn't there some Transport Canada law/regulations about once you have a certain number of rail crossings a day at any particular spot you have to grade separate?

Not really. You calculate a number (high is bad, low is good) which is a risk indicator. They like if if everything above a certain threshold is grade separated but it doesn't appear to be required.

The level crossing at Strachan was way way above the threshold for several decades as are several level crossings in Oakville. Service on lines through these points was regularaly boosted despite already having a high number.

It seems to be more of a nice-to-have than a mandatory item.


Could someone post the name for that number? I don't remember it and Wiki isn't being helpful today.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Van Buren Township in Wayne County Michigan tested a unique system of bollards that rise up to act as a second barrier to the crossing gates. This could be an alternative to complete grade seperation

http://www.ibarrier.com/flash/railroad.html

http://www.ibarrier.com/120307.html#

 

[ShonTron]

Not really. You calculate a number (high is bad, low is good) which is a risk indicator. They like if if everything above a certain threshold is grade separated but it doesn't appear to be required.

The level crossing at Strachan was way way above the threshold for several decades as are several level crossings in Oakville. Service on lines through these points was regularaly boosted despite already having a high number.

It seems to be more of a nice-to-have than a mandatory item.

There's only four level crossings on the entire Georgetown corridor now (except Strachan and the Weston crossings which are being replaced) to Mount Pleasant Station, the likely terminus of full regional rail service - Scarboro Street in Malton (which is a minor residential crossing), Torbram Road (a relatively major crossing), John Street downtown Brampton (at which a second track was laid; this is a busy crossing with GO, VIA and CN freight mainline) and Mill Street, next to the station and very difficult to grade separate (likely easier to shut, and replace with a McMurchy Avenue bridge further west).

Apart from Torbram, none of these crossing are busy, and some sort of access for pedestrians and cyclists will need to be maintained at each of them so you can't just shut them down.

There's a few on the Lakeshore East line still - Scarborough Golf Club Road, Galloway, Poplar, Morningside, Manse, Beechgrove, Rodd Avenue in Pickering. This is also a very busy three track corridor with all-day GO, a full complement of express and local trains during rush hours, the busiest VIA usage (Toronto-Brockville).

On the Lakeshore West, there's even more GO trains crossing at Haig, Ogden, Alexandria, Revus, Stavebank, Lorne Park, Clarkson in Mississauga and Chartwell in Oakville.

Level crossings are not going away, nor should they have to. There's crossings in Calgary where during rush hours, the gates drop every 2-3 minutes.

That bollard solution posted above has its own flaws, and isn't necessary if you double-gate and/or put in permanent traffic islands (or permanent bollards for that matter) at railway crossings.

Most grade separation projects come about more as a result of road traffic levels, rather than rail traffic levels.

 

[gweed123]

http://www.gotransit.com/electrific...y/docs/ElectricificationStudy_FinalReport.pdf

Take a look at Option #1 from the above report released December 2010. It lists off minimum requirements for electrification without considering requirements for a capacity boost.

I believe that in addition to grounding everything, there are still a handful of bridges which haven't been built between Kitchener and Brampton. They mention 11 bridges requiring work and I can only think of about 5 that have received work or are tendered but they also don't mention where those 11 are.


GO could drop $10B on their track pretty easily and still not have fully grade separated, fully electrified, and frequent service (5 minute frequencies in rush hour) on all lines.

Gracias!

And I agree with the comments below that grade-separation, particularly on the outer sections of the lines that will only be seeing peak service, isn't really mandatory, but more of a nice-to-have. On sections further in though (that will be seeing all-day ~15 min service), I think it will be needed from a practicality standpoint.

 

[nfitz]

Van Buren Township in Wayne County Michigan tested a unique system of bollards that rise up to act as a second barrier to the crossing gates. This could be an alternative to complete grade seperation

http://www.ibarrier.com/flash/railroad.html

http://www.ibarrier.com/120307.html#

Might work in a rural area, but there's lots of videos on YouTube of similar rising bollards, penetrating cars that were in the wrong place, hitting pedestrians, and creating accidents.

[video=youtube;fyihogeiyH0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyihogeiyH0[/video]

Other videos at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eUkk8FXXD0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eexMliGRMYg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdeAR6gQR3w

Doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

[Platform 27]

Not really. You calculate a number (high is bad, low is good) which is a risk indicator. They like if if everything above a certain threshold is grade separated but it doesn't appear to be required.

The level crossing at Strachan was way way above the threshold for several decades as are several level crossings in Oakville. Service on lines through these points was regularaly boosted despite already having a high number.

It seems to be more of a nice-to-have than a mandatory item.


Could someone post the name for that number? I don't remember it and Wiki isn't being helpful today.

Either "cross-product" (per the most recent Transport Canada policy on the matter), or "crossing exposure index".

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Some information about the crossing exposure index;

It would make sense to grade separate those crossings in the future, however currently there are no plans to do so. When determining the need for a grade separation the Road/Rail Exposure Index is used. This number is the average daily number of vehicles multiplied by the number of daily trains passing over the crossing. When this number exceeds 200,000, a grade separation is considered warranted. 21500 vehicles pass over this section of Danforth ave. and 18000 vehicles pass over the Progress ave. level crossings (according to the city of Toronto in 2005, no doubt the numbers have slightly increased by then but likely not by too much). 10 daily trains use the crossing, 5 GO trains going south in the morning and 5 going north in the evening. There is also the occasional road switcher which services the few industries on the line but it only appears a couple of times per week and when you divided it by 7 days the number is less then 1 so it is not a significant factor. The exposure indexs for Danforth is 215,000 and for Progress 180,000. Only Danforth would warrant a grade separations (though Progress may have exceeded 200,000 as of 2010) but only just barely. The exposure index for Sheppard ave is over 300,000 and a grade separation is being built for it, though the main reason why it was pushed forward is because of the transit city light rail line being built along Sheppard. In comparison there are several level crossings on the lakeshore corridor where the exposure index exceeds 1,000,000! Kerrs street in Oakville, for which a grade seperation is planned for, exceeds 1.6 million! (http://www.oakville.ca/Media_Files/engconst/KerrStreetCNR-PIC1PresMaterial.pdf pg13)

Unfortunately that link at the bottom does not exist anymore.

Electric Multiple Units (EMUs) in two car train consists operating at 15 minute headways
17.5 hours per day (approx 05:00 am to 01:00 am) for the ARL.

Somebody can't add, 5:00am to 1:00am the next days is 20 hours not 17.5
Hopefully thats just a typo as 20 hours has always been the scheduled daily duration of the service.

 

[doady]

Might work in a rural area, but there's lots of videos on YouTube of similar rising bollards, penetrating cars that were in the wrong place, hitting pedestrians, and creating accidents.

[video=youtube;fyihogeiyH0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyihogeiyH0[/video]

Other videos at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eUkk8FXXD0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eexMliGRMYg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdeAR6gQR3w

Doesn't seem like a good idea.

Awesome, they should have these things at ALL intersections. People who run a red light destroy their own cars, instead of other people's cars or pedestrians.