Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[DKsan]

Two pictures, albeit from a moving GO bus and from my cell phone camera:

 

[Dan416]

What pollutes more? A 4800 hp locomotive hauling 70+ heavy freight cars, or a 3 engine DMU where each engine is roughly 500 hp hauling 3 light passenger rail cars?

I agree that we need electrification but I think the issue is being used to cloud things. Why suddenly demand electrification here? What about elsewhere in the network? What good is electrification if CN continues to use massive diesel locomotives on it's freight trains.

I think IMO that electrification must begin at Union station's trackage. Until there is electrification there (which arguably is busier than Weston, in terms of rail traffic) there is no incentive to run electric trains and electrify tracks elsewhere in the region.

And plus what about the output of non electrified cars everywhere in comparison to this train anyway.

So true. These residents' cars are probably more polluting than this train will be.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Not to beat on this groups case any more but about the "busiest diesel rail corridor in the world" comment. Doesn't the Georgetown (now Kitchener?) corridor connect to the Milton corridor at the West Toronto Junction and then these connect to the Lakeshore West corridor just west of Bathurst? Since Milton and Lakeshore West are pretty busy (at least in terms of GO trains) in their own right does that not by definition make these corridors busier than the Georgetown corridor through Weston and thus these sections of trackage are "the busiest diesel rail corridors in the world"??? My maths aren't that great, but when you add more trains doesn't that mean busier???

 

[nfitz]

My maths aren't that great, but when you add more trains doesn't that mean busier???

I think your mistake is, that your've forgotten that "world" is defined as Weston.

 

[ssiguy2]

I was obviously being sarcastic when I reffered to using CMU under Eglinton. My point was that if there was no harm or pollution from these trains it wouldn't be a problem. In other words there clearly is an issue of pollution using diesel trains.

The people of Weston are going to bitch regardless, I get that part. I think what is making this so unbearable to many is that this train isn't public transit. It is certainly being paid for with public money but it is not gearted towards the local population. If it was then Metrolinx would not refer to the few who will use it as "guests". The TTC calls {and treats for that matter} a lot of things but guests isn't one of them.

The OTrain in Ottawa is basically the exact same DMU as the UP express and there is far less outrage over it because it is part of the public transit system just as much as the bus is while the UP line has no connection to any of the public transit services in the GTA including GO. This is a Pan Am line and the province wouldn't give a damn if the whole line ended the day after the games do but then neither will Torontonians care either. I think what makes this even more embarrassing is that Toronto has the nerve to say that this will be the "greenest" games ever.

As far as electrification goes, Metrolinx says it will electrify the line in the future...............in the future in Toronto transit terms means between now and 2090.

I think it's clear that nearly everyone wants the line electrified but many would be willing to wait til after the games get built to do it but they have no faith in Metrolinx to actually do it. If Metrolinx came out and gave a clear timetable that come hell or high water the line will be electrified by say 2018 then many would hold their tongue but Metrolinx won't do that which is why there is so much flak. This added to the fact that the line is great for the business class and tourists who are in town for the weekend but means nothing to the people who are actually paying for it. They get the honour of subsidizing the wealthy who can afford to take while the masses who can't afford to take it and those who live along the corridor or work at Pearson have to wait for another packed bus in the rain.

This whole thing would not be an issue if Metrolinx had been honest from the beginning and if the line was being built for Torontonians but neither is true.

 

[nfitz]

This whole thing would not be an issue if Metrolinx had been honest from the beginning and if the line was being built for Torontonians but neither is true.

The Weston Nimby's spent 5 years screwing everyone over, who was involved in this project, before Metrolinx ever became involved.

Why do you claim Metrolinx had not been honest from the beginning, when they were only brought into the process half-a-decade after the process started?

Why are you trying to distort history?

 

[rbt]

The Weston Nimby's spent 5 years screwing everyone over, who was involved in this project, before Metrolinx ever became involved.

Yup. Metrolinx didn't even exist as an organization when Weston began fighting this project.

 

[DavidH]

The Weston Nimby's spent 5 years screwing everyone over, who was involved in this project, before Metrolinx ever became involved.

Indeed. And given their behaviour thus far, does anyone seriously believe that the Weston folks fighting this would not find something else to object about if an announcement of immediate electrification was made today?

Everything indicates that they will retreat to another position and argue about something else. EMF fields from the power lines needed to support electrification. Train volume. Noise. Something...

And given that, electrification really isn't the issue here, at all, but is simply a means to their desired end: stopping the UP Express line and (arguably) expansion of GO service in the corridor.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yup. Metrolinx didn't even exist as an organization when Weston began fighting this project.

The irony is that (since time value of money is very important in calculating financial returns) you have to wonder if the private sector would have backed away from their involvement if all the delays had not been thrown up....and if the opposition is part of the reason we now see statements like "It is certainly being paid for with public money but it is not gearted towards the local population".

 

[ShonTron]

The Weston Nimby's spent 5 years screwing everyone over, who was involved in this project, before Metrolinx ever became involved.

Why do you claim Metrolinx had not been honest from the beginning, when they were only brought into the process half-a-decade after the process started?

Why are you trying to distort history?

Why are you trying to distort history to say that Weston Nimby's [sic] spent five years screwing everyone over? As I recall it was SNC Lavalin that was trying to do the screwing at the beginning.

These days, yes the Weston NIMBYs are often unreasonable and scatterbrained.

 

[nfitz]

Why are you trying to distort history to say that Weston Nimby's [sic] spent five years screwing everyone over? As I recall it was SNC Lavalin that was trying to do the screwing at the beginning.

Touché

 

[TOareaFan]

Why are you trying to distort history to say that Weston Nimby's [sic] spent five years screwing everyone over? As I recall it was SNC Lavalin that was trying to do the screwing at the beginning.

These days, yes the Weston NIMBYs are often unreasonable and scatterbrained.

Touché

Can one/both give a brief recap of how SNC was trying to screw everyone? It would be helpful.

 

[ShonTron]

First off, SNC Lavalin was acting as both the proponent (operator of the airport rail link refurbished 60-year old Budd Rail Diesel Cars as well as constructor of the corridor) and the the EA consultant, a gross conflict of interest.

Secondly, Weston was to be split in two without even a John Street bridge and many more homes demolished than what is now in the works. Why would SNC, in an EA report, recommend things that SNC, the builder/operator might find too expensive for their profit model?

Finally, SNC Lavalin was going to get a long-term operating lease for the corridor, with priority over GO and VIA, which would have resulted in a 407-type scenerio where there would be little oversight of the private operation. CN was to retain control over the corridor.

It didn't help that the initial meetings had the air of "this is what we're doing whether you like it or not".

This is why the Weston crowd because so vocal and organized and partially why the remaining group is so stubborn and unreasonable.

There have been a few key concessions - first off a new consultant was hired to eliminate the conflict of interest. Secondly, major changes were made to the Weston trench. Later, the rail link was brought back under public control (Metrolinx) and the corridor acquired by GO. Electrification finally became a serious option for GO. Better, cleaner trainsets were procured. And Weston got that sop of a stop. Community consultations became a hell of a lot better than the way SNC ran things.

There's still some big issues - whether GO will actually provide the additional service to Brampton that it needed 15 years ago. What the pricing will be on the air link and whether it will be useful/affordable to airport commuters (the majority of the trips to the airport). The poor Bloor-Dundas station connection. And how the little things - like noise walls - will fit.

 

[ssiguy2]

Where they lied was telling people that the line couldn't be electrified in time for the games.

If they had decided to electrify the line when Metrolinx began construction then electrifying the line by the Pan Am games would have been a piece of cake. Cities built huge Metro lines in less time, Vancouver for instance.

Like I said, people may bite their tongues and allow the line to run diesel if they GUARANTEE the line will be electrified by say 2018 and the line became part of the standard TTC system with standard TTC fares so the travelling public could use the line they are paying for. Metrolinx will not give any timelines except "in the future" just like the DRL will be built in the future which they have been saying for over 40 years.

 

[TOareaFan]

There's still some big issues - whether GO will actually provide the additional service to Brampton that it needed 15 years ago. What the pricing will be on the air link and whether it will be useful/affordable to airport commuters (the majority of the trips to the airport). The poor Bloor-Dundas station connection. And how the little things - like noise walls - will fit.

I had an interesting exchange via email with metrolinx last week on the bolded topic. As some will know, I have been stating for some time that despite all the grand plans announced about increased service that GO/Metrolinx had stated directly to me in an email that there were no plans to take the GO service on that line to full day, two way (what I refer to as Lakeshore level service)........a couple of weeks ago there was discussion here (either in this thread or the GO Service thread) about how the next phase of the Big Move prioritized Lakeshore level of service on all of their lines and showed the cost at $4.9B.

I felt that I should ask them if this superceded the direct advise they had given me or not. So as not to mis-state their position, i will quote them directly.

The email I sent you last spring stated that there were no plans to introduce two-way, all-day service on the Kitchener line for Opening Day 2015. This is still accurate information. After the completion of the Georgetown South Project, we will only be adding 10 additional train trips to the Kitchener corridor.

The Big Move, our 25-year, $50-billion plan for coordinated, integrated transportation and transit in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. Its implementation will allow for a thriving, sustainable and protected environment, and a strong, prosperous and competitive economy. Two-way, all-day service on the Milton, Kitchener, Barrie, Richmond Hill and Stouffville lines was identified in The Big Move as the next wave of priority projects. However, there are no confirmed timelines for when this service will begin and funding sources must be identified to make this vision a reality.

With regards to your question about cost, although some of the infrastructure from the Georgetown South Project would have to be built to make the two-way, all-day service a reality, an additional $4.9B is needed to achieve the goal of two-way, all-day service for the Next Wave of Projects for GO Rail Service Expansion (detailed in the link you included in your email).

I was intrigued by this because the full Lakeshore level service was now a priority item and a lot of money has (will be) already spent on the line I am most interested in so I provided a follow up question basically asking if the current investment meant the Georgetown/KW line was good to go or, if not, how much of the $4.9B identified as the cost of bringing all of the lines to Lakeshore level was needed to finish off the GTown/KW work. The answer:

I have looked into your question, and have learned that we do not have additional information at this time as we are still doing further work to determine the costs associated with each part of the network.

Honestly, in all my years of writing letters and emails asking questions and making suggestions about transit (particulalry on this line) this was the most frustrating answer of all. How can we the public have any faith in any cost estimates they put out when this is the answer provided. Report after report after report, all glossy, all pretty, all with figures attached ...they really look well researched and yet when you ask a question which (to paraphrase myself) was really "how is that $4.9B arrived at/allocated"...you get (to paraphrase them) "we don't know yet". Is it really $4.9B to bring full service to the non-lakeshore lines.....who knows....they certainly don't seem to!

The good news (for ssguy2 anyway) I think you are many many years away from this becoming the busiest rail corridor in the known universe (or whatever it is you call it ).

I did follow up with another question but, unfortunately, I could not hide/mask my frustration and I doubt there is a reply coming:

How can Metrolinx state that bringing all of the non-Lakeshore lines to full service levels would cost $4.9B if they do not know what the component costs are? It sounds like, either, the information is known but not available for public consumption OR it is based solely on someone sticking their thumb in the air?