Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli

I'm getting fed up with those who keep whining that a casino will create nothing but problems, yet their complete lack of logic is irrelevant? They claim addiction to gambling will increase, that is utterly untrue and absurd! Using the same logic, it's like blaming the LCBO for alcoholism, or pharmacies for drug addiction. The state is not, not should it, be responsible for its citizens stupidity. All I see is a group of ill informed, ignorant people who don't even really know why they're against a casino. To me the answer is obvious, yes! Why, in any way, would someone say no to much needed revenue? There really is no logical reason to say no, it would benefit the city in numberous ways, increased tourism, increased revenue, it's a win win, but, I hate to say it, you know that city council will Debate the hell out of this, as usual, and come to the wrong decision. Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but I find it frustrating when we have such a fantastic opportunity, and we may lose it because of ignorance and pure stupidity. Give me a logical reason, based of facts, why we should reject it, and I'll completely respect you, but I just can't respect ignorance.
 
If the province are serious about revenue why would they let MGM or Las Vegas Sands operate it? As crappy as the Montreal casino is at least the Quebec gets 100% of the profit and can re-invest it into the local economy.. If all we're going to get is taxes on the profit and taxes on the land, no thank you ma'am.
 
Last edited:
Having a casino downtown seems like the only logical place to have it. Connected to transit and a big population base. Why have it in the suburbs? I'm not a gambler but just like those non drinkers, theirs something for everyone. I guess they are going to demolish the rbc processing cente on front st. To make way for this?
 
Hanlansboy said:
I'm getting fed up with those who keep whining that a casino will create nothing but problems, yet their complete lack of logic is irrelevant? They claim addiction to gambling will increase, that is utterly untrue and absurd! Using the same logic, it's like blaming the LCBO for alcoholism, or pharmacies for drug addiction. The state is not, not should it, be responsible for its citizens stupidity. All I see is a group of ill informed, ignorant people who don't even really know why they're against a casino. To me the answer is obvious, yes! Why, in any way, would someone say no to much needed revenue? There really is no logical reason to say no, it would benefit the city in numberous ways, increased tourism, increased revenue, it's a win win, but, I hate to say it, you know that city council will Debate the hell out of this, as usual, and come to the wrong decision. Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but I find it frustrating when we have such a fantastic opportunity, and we may lose it because of ignorance and pure stupidity. Give me a logical reason, based of facts, why we should reject it, and I'll completely respect you, but I just can't respect ignorance.
Click to expand...

http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/0308grinols.html

"Casino gambling causes up to $289 in social costs for every $46 of economic benefit, according to Grinols. “In 2003 dollars, the cost to society of an additional pathological gambler is $10,330 based on studies performed in the mid-1990s, whereas the cost to society of an additional problem gambler is $2,945,†he wrote. “Accounting for the cost of raising tax dollars to cover some of these costs raises the totals to $11,304 and $3,222, respectively.â€

Put differently, Grinols said, “The costs of problem and pathological gambling are comparable to the value of the lost output of an additional recession in the economy every four years.â€

Found via http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/June-2011/Would-a-Chicago-Casino-Cause-Crime/
 
The angular residential and office towers on the right IMO resemble the Diagonal Tower by SOM in Seoul So. Korea. That tower is 62 storeys and 343 meters high. Looks like the buildings in this image have the same floor count. One can only hope that they build these towers close to a similar height.
However, I'm not holding my breath.
dezeen_Diagonal-Tower-by-SOM_1.jpg



agoraflaneur said:
Looks like the casino proposal is getting a bit more serious, with mention of three towers - office, residential and a hotel - and a park being built over the railways.

"Sources indicated on Thursday night that the project would expand the Metro Toronto Convention Centre and, beyond a casino, would involve building a new hotel and residential units on the west side of the complex. The development would require the demolition of two existing buildings on the site, one occupied by Royal Bank of Canada, one source said.

A source said the project would include three towers, office and residential buildings and a hotel. The office and residential components would go ahead, but at a slower pace, if the casino bid is unsuccessful.

Oxford bought the Metro Toronto Convention Centre last year from Canada Lands Company. The site runs from Simcoe Street to John Street, and sits next to other properties that Oxford owns including 315 Front St. – in which Royal Bank of Canada is the lead tenant – and 325 Front St.

A number of large U.S. casino operators have expressed interest in a Toronto site and sources say that Las Vegas Sands Corp., one of at least three Nevada-based gambling empires that have come forward since the province announced the plan, is interested in the Front street location."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...roject-could-include-a-casino/article4608014/

Press Release:

http://www.marketwire.com/press-rel...ld-scale-project-downtown-toronto-1712716.htm

Photos from their press release:

View attachment 9451
View attachment 9452View attachment 9453
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • dezeen_Diagonal-Tower-by-SOM_1.jpg
    dezeen_Diagonal-Tower-by-SOM_1.jpg
    50 KB · Views: 483
I don't know if anyone looked at the companies that are bidding... MGM, Caesars, LVS, their earnings are either stagnant or down huge from a few years ago.. not really encouraging if things here start to cool down...

This article from The Atlantic corroborates, and gives a good read into the industry from someone who beat them at their own game http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...roke-atlantic-city/308900/2/?single_page=true
Hard times do not favor the house. The signs of a five-year slump are evident all over Atlantic City, in rundown façades, empty parking lots, and the faded glitz of its casinos’ garish interiors.
Click to expand...

Revenue from Atlantic City’s 11 casinos fell from a high of $5.2 billion in 2006 to just $3.3 billion last year. The local gaming industry hopes the opening of a 12th casino, Revel, this spring may finally reverse that downward trend, but that’s unlikely.
Click to expand...

When revenues slump, casinos must rely more heavily on their most prized customers, the high rollers who wager huge amounts—tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars a hand. Hooking and reeling in these “whales,” as they are known in the industry, can become essential. High rollers are lured with free meals and drinks, free luxury suites, free rides on private jets, and … more.
Click to expand...

two years ago, Johnson says, the casinos started getting desperate. With their table-game revenues tanking and the number of whales diminishing, casino marketers began to compete more aggressively for the big spenders. After all, one high roller who has a bad night can determine whether a casino’s table games finish a month in the red or in the black. Inside the casinos, this heightened the natural tension between the marketers, who are always pushing to sweeten the discounts, and the gaming managers, who want to maximize the house’s statistical edge.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I think until we see actual plans of this project it is too early to really say anything about it (as noted the pictures state clearly that the illustrations are for massing/illustration only). Just because a big name is involved does not guarantee it's going to be good.

If we're going to replace the convention centre, it would be nice to have a nice looking iconic convention centre, instead of another generic looking box. If we're going to have a big hotel, it would be nice to get some details or else maybe we're going to be getting a 1000-bed Howard Johnson.

Even worse, while the articles state that they want the 'province' to run the casino, what's to say that they don't actually want something like Sands to be building it? Casinos are massively profitable enterprises, the house always wins. If we let something like Sands/MGM/Wynn build a casino in downtown, we're more or less giving them license to print money, and basically completely destroying any revenue that all the other casinos in the GTA make. Fat chance that Casino Rama or Casino Niagara or even the Great White Heron casino makes any money now!

As well, as many have suggested, how feasible is this park over the tracks going to be? I mean obviously we all want to see it, our own mini Shinjuku station here in Toronto. But will this park be 6 stories above ground where no one will ever use it? Will it just be not allowed and Oxford will be like 'oh well too bad' but still build a crappy generic convention centre and a new casino?

Until there are more details, everyone on this thread could just be cheering for a generic box convention centre, some office/condo towers (with no heights specified, nor any actual designs other than 'illustrative purposes only'), and of course a mega casino run by a mega corporation which will suck a few billion $$s per year away from Toronto into some billionaire's pocket in the USA. Yes I want Sheldon Adelson to take our money for some generic buildings... right.

And of course as the above article from 000 illustrates, casinos like all businesses have cycles. If a normal business does bad, they will shut down and the storefront will be repurposed. It's kind of hard to repurpose 500,000 sq ft of space which was designed only to be a massive casino.
 
Last edited:
greenleaf said:
http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/0308grinols.html

"Casino gambling causes up to $289 in social costs for every $46 of economic benefit, according to Grinols. “In 2003 dollars, the cost to society of an additional pathological gambler is $10,330 based on studies performed in the mid-1990s, whereas the cost to society of an additional problem gambler is $2,945,†he wrote. “Accounting for the cost of raising tax dollars to cover some of these costs raises the totals to $11,304 and $3,222, respectively.â€

Put differently, Grinols said, “The costs of problem and pathological gambling are comparable to the value of the lost output of an additional recession in the economy every four years.â€

Found via http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/June-2011/Would-a-Chicago-Casino-Cause-Crime/
Click to expand...

With all due respect.. what is a cost to society, in general, of 'pathological' drinking?
Say.. Few times more than gambling? Isn't it?
Yet alcohol is readily available in hundreds of locations around T.O. Go figure!
Same logic should extend to (still legal) sale of cigarettes, why not?

I just hope common sense will prevail, and besides - any economist, with some agenda, can prove his point by selective juggling of statistics and biased 'comparative' studies.
I've been around long enough to witness that fenomenon.
:)

Hanlansboy:
+1!
 
Last edited:
I'll leave my thoughts off the towers for now (cause the photo released i believe is only to show massing), but i will say, WHY twin towers?!?! x2 .... so we'll have 4 massive twin towers on our skyline.

Also, I don't like how the treatment on the Metro Block is handled facing Front St. just a low-rise retail podium with towers pushed well away from the street???

As for the Casino, why not build one on the islands/Leslie Spit/Port Lands area? I think a Casino by the water would be pretty slick, (kinda like the one in Montreal).
 
steveve said:
As for the Casino, why not build one on the islands/Leslie Spit/Port Lands area? I think a Casino by the water would be pretty slick, (kinda like the one in Montreal).
Click to expand...

Well, it wouldn't make a huge difference to where the proposal is already right now (Front Street). Also, a casino on the waterfront would have a caused a full out revolt by everyone downtown considering even this decent proposal is being scrutinized. Also, can't build a casino on the idlands because of the airport and the huge pressure it would put on the ferries and transportation. Many dont even think Torontonians want a casino even though many do, but a casino right on the waterfront would is just too far-fetched.
 
cogito ergo said:
With all due respect.. what is a cost to society, in general, of 'pathological' drinking?
Say.. Few times more than gambling? Isn't it?
Yet alcohol is readily available in hundreds of locations around T.O. Go figure!
Same logic should extend to (still legal) sale of cigarettes, why not?

I just hope common sense will prevail, and besides - any economist, with some agenda, can prove his point by selective juggling of statistics and biased 'comparative' studies.
I've been around long enough to witness that fenomenon.
:)

Hanlansboy:
+1!
Click to expand...

Everyone dodges the costs related to being overweight and obese, it far exceeds smoking cigarettes or alcohol abuse and we have another new generation of largely stressed and sedentary young people who are developing diabetes and heart disease into their 30's, or earlier. If you want to bring addiction issues into the discussion I think we should be so much more concerned about that epidemic than of a properly located casino that will bring thousands of permanent jobs to the complex, increase tourism and generate huge amounts of income for the city and Province. That said, a fund should be established by the OLG to help those who may have, or may develop gambling problems due to casinos located near them.
 
cogito ergo said:
With all due respect.. what is a cost to society, in general, of 'pathological' drinking?
Say.. Few times more than gambling? Isn't it?
Yet alcohol is readily available in hundreds of locations around T.O. Go figure!
Same logic should extend to (still legal) sale of cigarettes, why not?

I just hope common sense will prevail, and besides - any economist, with some agenda, can prove his point by selective juggling of statistics and biased 'comparative' studies.
I've been around long enough to witness that fenomenon.
:)

Hanlansboy:
+1!
Click to expand...

Hanlansboy asked for evidence. I gave evidence from a book that was a result of years study by a well respected academic who is a leader their in their field. You gave me this. Alcohol and cigarettes are not the issue here.
 
Solid Snake said:
Montreal has a Casino facing downtown directly above a subway station and there hasn't been any social catastrophe over there.
Click to expand...
However to put in perspective, a casino on Front would be like a casino in the Quartier international. Montreal's location is ideal - the St. Lawrence acts as a natural buffer from the city, yet easy access is provided via subway/bus.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top