Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli

[Filip]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I don't buy this argument. It's easily refuted.

A casino is going in the GTA no matter what; the government has made that very clear. Now we have two options. Let another municipality enjoy the tax revenue and added tourism or take advantage of it ourselves. The social ills (whatever they may be) will exist whether or not this casino is on Front, in Markham, Mississauga or Brampton.

Also, as I've mentioned before, it is not our responsibility to coddle those who cannot control themselves. Should we deprive ourselves of another form of entertainment simply because 1% of the population doesn't know when to stop? Maybe we should ban alcohol as it's a far bigger problem, or most medicinal drugs as many abuse it.. See what I mean?

The one person I know who is vehemently against a casino had a compulsive gambler in her family. I feel for her, but at the same time it was her relative's problem. He also gambled at Niagara therefore it's not like there are currently no problems in Toronto even without a casino. The rest of the people I have spoken with sound very excited.

 

[gweed123]

I don't buy this argument. It's easily refuted.

A casino is going in the GTA no matter what; the government has made that very clear. Now we have two options. Let another municipality enjoy the tax revenue and added tourism or take advantage of it ourselves. The social ills (whatever they may be) will exist whether or not this casino is on Front, in Markham, Mississauga or Brampton.

Also, as I've mentioned before, it is not our responsibility to coddle those who cannot control themselves. Should we deprive ourselves of another form of entertainment simply because 1% of the population doesn't know when to stop? Maybe we should ban alcohol as it's a far bigger problem, or most medicinal drugs as many abuse it.. See what I mean?

The one person I know who is vehemently against a casino had a compulsive gambler in her family. I feel for her, but at the same time it was her relative's problem. He also gambled at Niagara therefore it's not like there are currently no problems in Toronto even without a casino. The rest of the people I have spoken with sound very excited.

I agree with you completely. I also think that there's a scare factor out there. Anti-casino people have been pointing to cities that have casinos like Detroit, Niagara Falls NY, Thunder Bay, etc. They point to them and say "Look at how awful the areas around the casinos are! They destroyed the area, and created crime!". Yeah, that may be partly true, but the areas in which the casinos are located were equally shitty even before the casino was put there. In a lot of cases they're actually better now than they were before.

As an example, look at the casino that was recently built in Pittsburgh. Before it was built, the area was a pretty nasty area along the Ohio River. Now it's part of an entertainment strip along the Ohio/Allegheny rivers that's becoming a pretty nice place. You have the casino, then Heinz Field, then some pretty nice condos and offices (with more to come), and then PNC Park.

Now granted Heinz Field and PNC Park were built first, but if the "casinos destroy neighbourhoods" thing were true, the area would have taken a re-nosedive. But it didn't, it kept going up. I actually went to a public meeting in Pittsburgh on the casino (it was part of a school field trip), and the arguments that were raised there are the exact same ones being raised here.

 

[greenleaf]

I don't buy this argument. It's easily refuted.

A casino is going in the GTA no matter what; the government has made that very clear. Now we have two options. Let another municipality enjoy the tax revenue and added tourism or take advantage of it ourselves. The social ills (whatever they may be) will exist whether or not this casino is on Front, in Markham, Mississauga or Brampton.

Also, as I've mentioned before, it is not our responsibility to coddle those who cannot control themselves. Should we deprive ourselves of another form of entertainment simply because 1% of the population doesn't know when to stop? Maybe we should ban alcohol as it's a far bigger problem, or most medicinal drugs as many abuse it.. See what I mean?

The one person I know who is vehemently against a casino had a compulsive gambler in her family. I feel for her, but at the same time it was her relative's problem. He also gambled at Niagara therefore it's not like there are currently no problems in Toronto even without a casino. The rest of the people I have spoken with sound very excited.

We're obviously on different sides of the fence, so I won't bother to bicker. Your attitude towards fellow humans feels pretty cold to me though.

 

[Miscreant]

I'm not sure about the casino, as I'd need to actually see some data on how they've fared in other cities (which I'm too lazy to do). But, I absolutely love the idea of tunneling the railway tracks. I've always thought they're hideous, looking as they do like a big scar right in the lower heart of the city.

 

[Filip]

We're obviously on different sides of the fence, so I won't bother to bicker. Your attitude towards fellow humans feels pretty cold to me though.

I just believe in letting individuals make choices in life; whether they be bad or good is up to them.

I am also against depriving the vast majority of the population because a tiny percentage of the population has trouble with their self control and accounting.

 

[fedplanner]

We're obviously on different sides of the fence, so I won't bother to bicker. Your attitude towards fellow humans feels pretty cold to me though.

On the first paragraph, he made a strong point. By the time I read the end of the second paragraph... :-(

So the 450,000 dedicated to casino space would make it one of the largest in the world. The second largest is 500,000, according to http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinStar_World_Casino

Originally, I was trying to estimate how many hotel rooms this project would contain and I came across the casino stat. Btw, we're probably looking at several thousand hotel rooms.

 

[greenleaf]

So the 450,000 dedicated to casino space would make it one of the largest in the world. The second largest is 500,000, according to http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinStar_World_Casino

Originally, I was trying to estimate how many hotel rooms this project would contain and I came across the casino stat. Btw, we're probably looking at several thousand hotel rooms.

Social issues and social costs aside, that's big for something that's just 10% of the whole project (what does that 10% mean anyway?).

The bigger question is what kind of city do we want to be? Do we want to make a ghetto for tourists next to the CN Tower, or do we want them to venture out in to the city? Large master planned projects never feel terribly authentic to me, unless they are very focussed, such as what DTAH and Waterfront Toronto are doing with the public realm along the waterfront. I suppose we haven't seen enough of the plan to see how well integrated into the city it would feel. Foster seems to have a pretty strong track record. I'm not convinced pf this proposal either way yet. I do think the casino or no project at all deal seems really weak to me. I don't buy it.

 

[DowntownTO]

Agree with greenleaf on this one. I think it would be terrible for Downtown TO to have a casino, socially speaking. We're not a gambling city and from every blog/article I've read, the people who live here do not want it. I can't imagine Front street becoming anything like a Vegas strip, who wants that?

 

[Torontovibe]

I just believe in letting individuals make choices in life; whether they be bad or good is up to them.

I am also against depriving the vast majority of the population because a tiny percentage of the population has trouble with their self control and accounting.

Does that same attitude apply to doing/selling hard drugs and selling sex? (Just curious if your values are consistent)

 

[Filip]

Does that same attitude apply to doing/selling hard drugs and selling sex? (Just curious if your values are consistent)

You cannot compare doing/selling hard drugs and prostitution to gambling.

The social ills related to gambling are probably far less than with alcoholism, substance abuse, prostitution, etc...

Quite frankly I just don't care what others do in their free time. Here we are discussing a project that would transform for the better one of the dreariest stretches of downtown, and finally tie together various landmarks; all packaged in a stunning architectural essay spearheaded by one of the finest firms in the world. A casino is nothing more but an addition to Toronto's rich tapestry of things to do. Maybe we should ask Adam Vaughan to close all the bars in Toronto as they lead to alcoholism, domestic abuse, homelessness, etc...

Slippery slope thinking I'm afraid.

 

[Solid Snake]

Montreal has a Casino facing downtown directly above a subway station and there hasn't been any social catastrophe over there.

 

[fedplanner]

Montreal has a Casino facing downtown directly above a subway station and there hasn't been any social catastrophe over there.

On a similar topic, I'm surprised at how early the bars close in Toronto. 2am is what I would expect to see in a small conservative town in the bible belt.

 

[000]

If the casino is only a small portion of the site I may have a change of heart for this project. The first idea was for the casino floor to cover the entire rail corridor was absurd. I question the location though, why are they putting it all the way on the west side near Spadina? That's a 1 kilometer walk from Union Station.. I thought they wanted to make it accessible to transit? Is the province going to operate and get all the profits from this casino? If not we can keep dreaming for a DRL...

 

[Grimace]

As someone who has in the past questioned the merit of putting a casino in Toronto, all I can say about this project is that it is sheer awesomeness.

First, as CN noted, putting the casino here will immerse it within a well developed area -- a self-contained gambling palace that does not interact with the surrounding area is impossible. Outside hotels, a massive convention centre, outside theatres and restaurants, office, sports... To self contain the place would make no sense when you've got a thousand hotel rooms you need to book.

Second, no tacky architecture, but in fact (sure, hoping, but it's Foster) some of the best. That puts it above pretty well every North American casino with the possible exception of Aria.

Third, the fact that this development stretches over streets and a railroad breaks it up. It is not one massive parcel but, despite sharing a convention centre underneath, at street level the casino/hotel stands apart from the retail which stands apart from the residential/office which stands apart from the convention centre on Bremner.

Fourth, immediately accessible by ARL, GO, subway and directly off the new Simcoe ramp. Essentially no new traffic on city streets I would think (hopefully they would figure out how to keep buses off Front).

The talk of doing this without the casino doesn't make sense. The hotel is obviously dependent on the casino, as is the retail (at least 1,000,000 sq. ft of it) and the rail cover and public park are public contributions to support the casino. Economics may support some more condos and office (though Oxford could just make 100 Adelaide taller) and a revamped convention centre, but that's a whole different ballgame and probably no incentive for Oxford to do that now rather than later. This is a big fat gift to the City that Oxford would finance with money from a Vegas casino operator. Of course it would do pretty well itself.

There's time for sober reflection but, I'm sorry, if you can't enjoy this on first blush you're a party pooper.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

On a similar topic, I'm surprised at how early the bars close in Toronto. 2am is what I would expect to see in a small conservative town in the bible belt.

I think it was in the early 90's when drinking hours were extended to 2am seven days a week from 1am & 11pm on Sundays in Ontario. We used to have "Happy Hours" too, but that was banned back in the 80's along with pitchers of mixed drinks (beer not included of course). There should be exceptions based on different types of permits being applied for (i.e. a casino) similar to how it is for special events (TIFF, Pride etc.) otherwise 2am isn't that bad.