Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli

[Big Daddy]

I've been wishing this for years but this makes no sense ... why would a casino all of the sudden make downtown more attractive for office development ... it wouldn't ...

I'm curious, what company are you referring too (and did they move in the end) ?

For all the talk of the reverse 416->905 migration, it really hasn't happened, sure less companies have moved out over the last 5 / 10 years, but very few have actually moved from the 905, there are a couple exceptions, though most of those have actually moved from the outer 416 but anyway ...

That's not what explains the growth in the core at all, its been the existing stock of tenants (i.e. the FIRE industry) expanding. In the outer core, its been the creative tech companies and the like (many start-ups) that have feuded this growth. On top of this their has been massive growth in the education / health care research industries, also predominantly located in the core ... though note health care in general is mainly Mississauga (and some parts of North York), but most of the research institutes are downtown.

But alas, the giant American corporations with their Canadian headquarters (predominantly in Mississauga, Markham, and Richmond Hill [ in that order ]), have yet to consider the core (or even the outer 416).


Anyway the point is, this development will not change anything whatsoever in this regard ... it will not make the core less or more attractive to anyone in terms of where to locate their offices.

I wasn't referring to the casino when I said downtown was becoming more attractive - why don't you read a post before you ravage it?

I said the glut of people now living downtown makes it more attractive to businesses. I'm pro casino, but that's a minor point regarding the vitality of our downtown. And no they have not yet made the move, but moving to the suburbs - preferably on the Yonge subway line - was the plan because that's where the employees were.

My point is/was, that now there are thousands more people downtown - due to the condo boom - I was postulating that downtown is now more attractive to businesses as a place to locate.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

The park over the railway plan indicates that the plan is a complete non starter. Many people here (including myself) have suggested decking over the central railway tracks and have constantly gotten the same reply. Unless and until the entire USRC is electrified and all trains running through the area are using locomotives capable of running on electric power; then we can not cover the tracks due to the need to exhaust the diesel fumes from the trains.

Not necessarily...
The USRC will be electrified once the Kitchener line electrification project begin, presumably sometime after the 2015 pan am games. But the majority of the trains running through there will still be diesel powered(for at least the next 20-30 years). However that doesn't necessarily preclude decking over the tracks - they'll just need lots of venting, something that has clearly been omitted from or not been taken into consideration in the rendering of the park.

 

[Critique]

Wow... great proposal!!! Talk about a game-changer along with the Mirvish project
The only critiques I can find is that the hotels don't look too impressive and make the office towers bigger because that design deserves to be a supertall.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

vegeta:

I can't imagine it is any different than what's been offered by the old Bush trainshed, which is mostly enclosed except for rather narrow slit vents at the rooftop. The amount of natural circulation that offers can't possibly be beyond the capacity of a mechanical system - and that's assuming one requires the same level of ventilation for what is to be a non-public space.

AoD

 

[Mongo]

I would also point out that the length of track to be enclosed in this proposal is not much more than is already enclosed by the Union Station platform shed, and in the case of Union Station those trains are mostly sitting there for extended periods of time belching diesel fumes, instead of just passing through. If Union Station can manage, I am sure that this proposal can as well.

edit -- AoD, by "Bush trainshed" are you referring to the old Union Station too?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Mongo:

The dingy steel roof over the platforms - yes.

AoD

 

[vegeta_skyline]

I'm no expert on tunnel ventilation but this 'tunnel' would be about 140ft wide at its narrowest point and only about 2000ft long. I suppose they would prefer to use a mechanical system for ventilation rather then the open air circulation if possible, which would of course dramatically reduce the amount of venting needed.

As for decking over the rails, the experience with the CityPlace bridge doesn't bode well for the prospects of this happening. CN are uncompromising old farts. It's like they're from the railroad era... Oh wait.

It's hard to say how that will play out. Not sure if CN still retains the air rights above the corridor at this location which has been owned by the TTR for a while now. However, signal sightlines, which was a problem with the city place bridge are not an issue here as all signals in this area are low mast/pot lights - i.e. placed on ground level and not on elevated signal masts(save for 2 on the blue jays way bridge structure which can be easily relocated on the ground below). Speeds are restricted to 15mph in this zone, which is why sight line requirements are far less stringent.

 

[Filip]

I also think I know the carrot Oxford will dangle.

AFAIK, this portion of the corridor is a pinch point due to the Skydome, correct? They can marginally widen it, fixing a major problem on the Union Corridor.

So many carrots that I think the city will cave.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

I don't think they can increase the corridor on the skydome(south) side. Large concrete supports can be seen there that likely serve as part of the foundation for the skydome itself(or at least the hotel portion thereof), I highly doubt they can be shifted. Now the convention(north) side on the other hand... There's a parking lot for the RBC buildings and then there's the convention center south wall. I think those structures can be removed far more easily and could facilitated the addition of a couple more tracks. Heck that could they could possibly build a platform solely dedicated to the ARL in there as well. Of course whether the city actually seriously considers their role in the matter of those constraints is entirely unknown(metrolinks/GO is a provincial operation afterall and VIA is the Fed's puppy) as is whether Oxford is actually willing to give up what would essentially be ground level space.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

That wouldn't happen. Ontario is authorizing more casinos to increase general revenue. Perhaps Council can set a condition of a Toronto added tax to casino revenues that would go to a transit fund. Don't want to pay the Toronto casino tax then drive to Niagara Falls and spend about the same on gas.

Excellent idea to negotiate a "Toronto tax" which goes into a fund strictly for underground public transit expansion.
The thing is they won't have to drive Niagara Falls or Casino Rama, only to Markham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan etc. - wherever the casino project goes to if Toronto rejects it. It's coming somewhere in the GTA, so let's grab it and have it here.

 

[planning2plan]

Gee, are you guys seeing the same shrink

Toronto Councillor Adam Vaughan, said the addition of a gambling facility in the downtown core would discourage other developments. “It will be like a bomb going off in the downtown core,â€




Anyways, lets look at the big picture before being so critical..looks like they are proposing going overtop the rail corridor and decking the tracks with parkland

Oxford Place has been master-planned by world renowned architects Foster + Partners, whose previous projects include: Abu Dhabi's Masdar City Development; Washington's Smithsonian Institute; Hong Kong's Chek Lap Kok airport; the Beijing Airport; and London's Canary Wharf Underground Station.

Can we start an Adam Vaughan Sticky with all his quotes?! There are bound to be some great ones in the next few weeks!

 

[taal]

I wasn't referring to the casino when I said downtown was becoming more attractive - why don't you read a post before you ravage it?

I said the glut of people now living downtown makes it more attractive to businesses. I'm pro casino, but that's a minor point regarding the vitality of our downtown. And no they have not yet made the move, but moving to the suburbs - preferably on the Yonge subway line - was the plan because that's where the employees were.

My point is/was, that now there are thousands more people downtown - due to the condo boom - I was postulating that downtown is now more attractive to businesses as a place to locate.

Ah, gotcha, sorry I didn't mean to come off like that.

I too hope the increased population will help in this regard but I don't think it has yet; Though I should add it has helped in terms of the smaller tech / media startups ... now these companies are new i.e. there were very few of these 1 decade ago, so this wasn't a shift from the 905 to the 416 but rather they simply started downtown from beginning ... if you think about it these companies are generally composed of younger folk, and the increased population downtown likely implied that's where the majority of the workforce they desire live. So, there you have it, a benefit of all those condos, which likely saw many new jobs around the core, but not shift from the 905 to the core. I think this trend will continue for such companies ... though when they grow up (the vast majority don't) they tend to move away from the core. Most larger tech companies (American companies namely) are located in Markham.

If you don't mind what company are you referring too ?

 

[DarkSideDenizen]

This area has long been in need of some "after hours" livening, but I'm not certain that adding a casino is the right direction to take. There are many cities with a healthy and vibrant nightlife that do not have casinos downtown.

 

[jaycola]

Here is a list of 5900 casinos worldwide list. Take a look at the cities on this list and tell me how many have been destroyed by having a casino in their midst?

A casino is going to be built somewhere in the GTA soon so whether it is downtown or not, the negative effects of gambling on the populous will still be there so why discuss in relation to this project in particular?

If you don't like gambling, don't gamble but many people enjoy it and do and can afford it as entertainment. For those who can't, maybe they need to stay away. Tomorrow I am going to Georgian Downs (my first time) with 4 other couples. We are going to eat, bet on some horses, maybe play some slots and come out with our lives intact.

I spent 4 days in Vegas last year and spent one evening gambling (which happened to be profitable). The rest of the time we went to shows and restaurants, shopped and walked, looked at the architecture and people watched. We didn't bring or rent a car, we took taxis, trams and bus shuttles.
Had we been given a free parking spot from our hotel, we wouldn't have used it.

I think this is a great location for the Casino and part of a huge and developing entertainment and tourist centre. Hopefully Toronto will leverage funds from the project for transportation improvements, a new urban park, public art and other cultural benefits.

Oh, as to the venting see this venting disguised from a car park in Spain. Just need to be creative.

Credit to Paul Turner on Flickr

 

[Automation Gallery]

There are many cities with a healthy and vibrant nightlife that do not have casinos downtown.

Yeah, but their niight clubs and bars are open till 4am