Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[BMO]

I would definitely take these rumors with a grain of salt. The first one, that undersized rails were installed, is egregious if true.

Would be egregious, but not surprising that a mistake like this could occur. Big complex project, and in my experience working on this project way back at the onset (no longer thankfully) there was a lot of learning that had to occur within Metrolinx since this was one of the first major provincial projects in a while managed by them. Spadina was heavily influenced by TTC and had an existing spec to work off. My perspective of Metrolinx staff at the time was well educated but limited actual experience having managed/delivered these projects and many MX managers were just trying to keep up with all the contractor comments and a million coordination meetings.

Big infrastructure is hard, and considering our entire country essentially slept on this specific type of infrastructure (rapid transit) for decades, we are now experiencing the consequences of that knowledge gap, both financially, and through these mistakes. Going forward, I'm sure this heartache will lead to better project delivery on new lines, which I think we're already seeing with Finch LRT and Ontario Line. But if we want to get the best return on investment, we have to continuously invest in this infrastructure so our skills can continue to be improved and investments in delivery innovation can be developed. Unfortunately, you can't just buy a new subway line "off-the-shelf" from Asia, because the legal, and regulatory environments in all geographies continuously change.

 

[T3G]

Not buying into the idea that a knowledge gap is to blame for this result. The TTC built the Spadina subway, Cherry Street tram line, and did countless rail replacement projects in the years surrounding the Crosstown's construction. The Spadina subway was delayed, but it was nowhere close to being as big of a cock up as the Crosstown was.

Is the lesson here that we should have had the TTC build it? Better the devil you know. I have not at any rate come away impressed by P3s or their necessity.

 

[Bojaxs]

Maybe the line will never open and all they are doing are stall tactics till the next election.

Considering the amount of work they're doing on the western extension, that would be a very concerning scenario. This project would go down as one of the biggest waste of tax payer dollars in Canadian history.

Can we just "re-do" this line? Rip everything apart and go back to the original plan and build a subway?

 

[Bojaxs]

Would be egregious, but not surprising that a mistake like this could occur. Big complex project, and in my experience working on this project way back at the onset (no longer thankfully) there was a lot of learning that had to occur within Metrolinx since this was one of the first major provincial projects in a while managed by them. Spadina was heavily influenced by TTC and had an existing spec to work off. My perspective of Metrolinx staff at the time was well educated but limited actual experience having managed/delivered these projects and many MX managers were just trying to keep up with all the contractor comments and a million coordination meetings.

Big infrastructure is hard, and considering our entire country essentially slept on this specific type of infrastructure (rapid transit) for decades, we are now experiencing the consequences of that knowledge gap, both financially, and through these mistakes. Going forward, I'm sure this heartache will lead to better project delivery on new lines, which I think we're already seeing with Finch LRT and Ontario Line. But if we want to get the best return on investment, we have to continuously invest in this infrastructure so our skills can continue to be improved and investments in delivery innovation can be developed. Unfortunately, you can't just buy a new subway line "off-the-shelf" from Asia, because the legal, and regulatory environments in all geographies continuously change.

Is it possible that MX is suffering from the effects of nepotism? Too many people in upper management, with no construction, rail or engineering experience, but were promised high paying/ low effort jobs for political favours?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Is it possible that MX is suffering from the effects of nepotism?

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Reviews/Employee-Review-Metrolinx-RVW24444455.htm

It's enough of an issue that they needed to post a policy about it.

https://www.oico.on.ca/web/default/files/metrolinx_coi_policy_en.pdf

(j) An employee shall not, on behalf of Metrolinx, hire their family member or friend. Additionalrequirements are in the Metrolinx Nepotism Policy.(k) An employee shall not, on behalf of Metrolinx, enter into a contract with their family memberor friend, or with any person or entity in which any of them has a substantial interest.(l) An employee who hires a person on behalf of Metrolinx shall ensure that the person doesnot report to, or supervise the work of, the person’s family member or friend. Additionalrequirements are in the Metrolinx Nepotism Policy.(m) An employee who reports to, or supervises the work of, their family member or friend, shallnotify Human Resources. Additional requirements are in the Metrolinx Nepotism Policy.

 

[evandyk]

I think every big company has a policy to that effect.

 

[Frankietls]

Is it possible that MX is suffering from the effects of nepotism? Too many people in upper management, with no construction, rail or engineering experience, but were promised high paying/ low effort jobs for political favours?

There is no real in-house technical expertise at MX as far as I know, they contract it our to design firms as TA (Technical Advisor) who acts on behalf of MX, the CA (Contract Authority), and whom the contractors mainly deal with in coordination. These firms could act as TA in one project and Design Consultant in other, like a revolving circle.
WSP is TA for ECLRT, and Designer for ECWE Tunnel 2 & Hamilton LRT.
Arup is TA for ECWE & OnCorr, and Designer for Finch West LRT.
Mott MacDonald is TA for Ontario Line, and Designer for Scarborough Subway Extension.

 

[christiesplits]

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Reviews/Employee-Review-Metrolinx-RVW24444455.htm

It's enough of an issue that they needed to post a policy about it.

https://www.oico.on.ca/web/default/files/metrolinx_coi_policy_en.pdf

(j) An employee shall not, on behalf of Metrolinx, hire their family member or friend. Additionalrequirements are in the Metrolinx Nepotism Policy.(k) An employee shall not, on behalf of Metrolinx, enter into a contract with their family memberor friend, or with any person or entity in which any of them has a substantial interest.(l) An employee who hires a person on behalf of Metrolinx shall ensure that the person doesnot report to, or supervise the work of, the person’s family member or friend. Additionalrequirements are in the Metrolinx Nepotism Policy.(m) An employee who reports to, or supervises the work of, their family member or friend, shallnotify Human Resources. Additional requirements are in the Metrolinx Nepotism Policy.

I think every big company has a policy to that effect.

The growth of centralized HR departments and HR software makes nepotism less rampant in the public service, than say, thirty years ago. I don't doubt it still happens in some corners.

 

[cplchanb]

also the very high turnover rate. My colleague has friends there that are on this project who have switched sides twice already. that in itself leads to a lot of confusion and backlog

 

[BMO]

Not buying into the idea that a knowledge gap is to blame for this result. The TTC built the Spadina subway, Cherry Street tram line, and did countless rail replacement projects in the years surrounding the Crosstown's construction. The Spadina subway was delayed, but it was nowhere close to being as big of a cock up as the Crosstown was.

Is the lesson here that we should have had the TTC build it? Better the devil you know. I have not at any rate come away impressed by P3s or their necessity.

This line is being built, managed, and operated by Metrolinx, who is contracting out the design and build, as well as operating contracts to organizations that are not the TTC. Also, Eglinton is being built for different train technology, and specs that really doesn't have any overlap with existing stock the TTC operate, so their knowledge on Spadina, etc isn't necessarily transferable.

 

[Admiral Beez]

This line is being built, managed, and operated by Metrolinx, who is contracting out the design and build, as well as operating contracts to organizations that are not the TTC. Also, Eglinton is being built for different train technology, and specs that really doesn't have any overlap with existing stock the TTC operate, so their knowledge on Spadina, etc isn't necessarily transferable.

We should have just dug a proper 28 km subway entirely below grade from Renforth to Kennedy and using new buys of the same Toronto Rockets we use on the Sheppard and Yonge–University Lines, or whatever trains will be bought for the 26 km Bloor-Danforth line.

If we had started a boring machine at Renforth in 2011 and stayed below ground the entire distance, minus bridge underpasses, how long would it need to get to Kennedy? I believe such machines run at about 10-15 meters per day. It's 28,000 meters as the crow flies from Renforth to Kennedy, so that's 2,800 days, or about eight years, assuming we don't run a second machine from Kennedy going westward.

 

[generalcanada]

Not buying into the idea that a knowledge gap is to blame for this result. The TTC built the Spadina subway, Cherry Street tram line, and did countless rail replacement projects in the years surrounding the Crosstown's construction. The Spadina subway was delayed, but it was nowhere close to being as big of a cock up as the Crosstown was.

Is the lesson here that we should have had the TTC build it? Better the devil you know. I have not at any rate come away impressed by P3s or their necessity.

Theres that 10 yr build talking point.

They started construction of the stations in 2016. while 8 years is a long time. It really isnt for a transit project of this size.

Does anyone actually count that 2027 date for the ontario line as truth? Anyone? is the ontario line 4 years delayed?

 

[generalcanada]

We should have just dug a proper 28 km subway entirely below grade from Renforth to Kennedy and using new buys of the same Toronto Rockets we use on the Sheppard and Yonge–University Lines, or whatever trains will be bought for the 26 km Bloor-Danforth line.

If we had started a boring machine at Renforth in 2011 and stayed below ground the entire distance, minus bridge underpasses, how long would it need to get to Kennedy? I believe such machines run at about 10-15 meters per day. It's 28,000 meters as the crow flies from Renforth to Kennedy, so that's 2,800 days, or about eight years, assuming we don't run a second machine from Kennedy going westward.

You cant just think about bare tunnels here, the longer the line, the more rails, the more stations, the more electrical work.

I think I remember the stat as an underground station like queen/spadina nowadays is in the realm of 300-500 million for a single station

Theres like 15 stops in scarborough. Thats like an extra 5-7 billion. Thats very underestimated too

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Theres that 10 yr build talking point.

They started construction of the stations in 2016. while 8 years is a long time. It really isnt for a transit project of this size.

Does anyone actually count that 2027 date for the ontario line as truth? Anyone? is the ontario line 4 years delayed?

If you market it as the truth - which MX and the Ontario government did - then you die by your own sword. The problem isn't the buyer - it is the seller of that message. Laying that responsibility on anyone else is gaslighting.

AoD

 

[T3G]

This line is being built, managed, and operated by Metrolinx, who is contracting out the design and build, as well as operating contracts to organizations that are not the TTC. Also, Eglinton is being built for different train technology, and specs that really doesn't have any overlap with existing stock the TTC operate, so their knowledge on Spadina, etc isn't necessarily transferable.

Reread my post again, you'll find rebuttals to all of these arguments in it.

If Metrolinx is contracting out the job to people who are not the TTC, and finds the LRV technology to be foreign, that is all the more argument for leaving the job to someone who knows how to do it. And they (the TTC) know - in most appreciable ways besides the signalling system, these cars are highly similar to the legacy cars that do run downtown, being built on the same platform.