Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Admiral Beez]

How many times have you been told that Ottawa and the Crosstown use different types of train models?

I suggest you park the dismissive attitude. We don't need identical equipment to learn from another Ontario city's experience with Alstom, the same supplier of the Crosstown's rolling stock. Alstrom is blaming loose wheel bearing fittings for derailments with Ottawa's Citadis Spirit trains, and is now implementing a redesign and fix; so I hope Metrolinx is checking if their Alstrom Flexity Freedom trains have the same issue.

Perhaps Alstom's Thunder Bay and Ottawa assembly plants do not both source their bogies and bearing assemblies from Alstom's Sorel-Tracy, QC plant, but it's still worth asking. Imagine instead some idiot at Metrolinx saying: "Ottawa and the Crosstown use different types of train models, so Ottawa's experience with Alstom is not relevant." Hopefully that idiot is terminated or reassigned to where they can do no harm.

 

[APTA-2048]

I suggest you park the dismissive attitude. We don't need identical equipment to learn from another Ontario city's experience with Alstrom, the same supplier of the Crosstown's rolling stock. For example, Alstrom is blaming loose wheel bearing fittings for derailments with Ottawa's Citadis Spirit trains, and is now implementing a redesign and fix. I'd like to hope Metrolinx is checking if their Alstrom Flexity Freedom trains have the same issue.

The Crosstown cars were designed and built by Bombardier. Exact same cars are running in Waterloo and Edmonton right now.

 

[T3G]

I suggest you park the dismissive attitude. We don't need identical equipment to learn from another Ontario city's experience with Alstrom, the same supplier of the Crosstown's rolling stock. For example, Alstrom is blaming loose wheel bearing fittings for derailments with Ottawa's Citadis Spirit trains, and is now implementing a redesign and fix. I'd like to hope Metrolinx is checking if their Alstrom Flexity Freedom trains have the same issue.

Why would we need to learn from a city's experience with a different model of train, when Waterloo and Edmonton are running the cars right now, and they themselves are not dissimilar to the legacy cars that Toronto has had in service for the last 10 years?

Bringing up Ottawa, therefore, seems like an attempt to stir up doubt and uncertainty.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Why would we need to learn.....seems like an attempt to stir up doubt and uncertainty.

You should work at Boeing with that thinking. Instead, we should always be learning, and yes doubting and questioning. If the common supplier, in this case Alstom has shipped product with faulty bearings it should pique interest, not dismissals.

All of Alstom's Canadian customers, not matter what specific train sets they're operating should be calling their supplier rep and asking if the bearing redesign on the Citadis Spirit impacts them. It's a simple phone call or email that I want to assume has already been made.

 

[fanoftoronto]

You should work at Boeing with that thinking. Instead, we should always be learning, and yes doubting and questioning. If the common supplier, in this case Alstrom has shipped product with faulty bearings it should pique interest, not dismissals.

All of Altrom's Canadian customers, not matter what specific train sets they're operating should be calling their supplier rep and asking if the bearing redesign on the Citadis Spirit impacts them. It's a simple phone call or email that I want to assume has already been made.

It's fine to be critical of suppliers given a prevalent problem. But in this case, Alstom wasn't the original designer or builder of the Flexity Freedom LRVs. Bombardier designed these LRVs and mostly even built them.

Alstom procured the transportation division of Bombardier midway through delivery of the 76 LRVs that were ordered for the Crosstown LRT line. By the time Alstom took over productions, the bearings needed for all the vehicles were probably already built and delivered for final assembly.

Hence the others stating that we need to look at other Bombardier Flexity Freedom vehicles in service rather than Alstom Citadis Spirit vehicles.

 

[crs1026]

I wonder what spec exacly was provided when the tender for the LRV’s was let. If the curve structure was known, whether it was good or bad is irrelevant. If Alstom knew the desired track structure and speed specification,, and bid on the contract with the implicit assurance that their product could meet the track spec, then they may have a problem stepping back.
As far as applying the lessons learned to Crosstown, I would note that Crosstown likely has a different curve design (and far fewer curves than Ottawa’s line) and different speed requirements. And again, if Bombardier bid the contract with an implicit assurance that their product could handle the spec, then Crosstown can likely rely on that assurance.
But being concerned that Crosstown’s LRV’s might not meet Ottawa’s spec is irrelevant, and so far there is no evidence suggesting that Flexities are curve unfriendly in any general sense. Nor is there evidence that Alstom’s product is curve unfriendly outside of Ottawa’s specific spec.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

You should work at Boeing with that thinking. Instead, we should always be learning, and yes doubting and questioning. If the common supplier, in this case Alstrom has shipped product with faulty bearings it should pique interest, not dismissals.

All of Altrom's Canadian customers, not matter what specific train sets they're operating should be calling their supplier rep and asking if the bearing redesign on the Citadis Spirit impacts them. It's a simple phone call or email that I want to assume has already been made.

Bombardier was not owned by Alstom* when the Flexity was being built, so obviously wasn’t sourcing from a competitor’s plant. You’re doubling down after being told that rather than taking a break before returning to your concern that that LFLRVs generally might have an issue here in a manner that seems to be creating FUD against Flexity**, except Citadis Spirit is a bespoke vehicle with part tram, part tram-train origins so it’s fair to check whether it is a model specific issue first.

* it’s impressive that in your seeming irritation at this company you managed to typo its name in two different ways but not its actual former name (GEC Alsthom )

** it’s not like Bombardier need issues at other companies thrown at them when they had plenty of issues themselves anyway

 

[Admiral Beez]

so it’s fair to check whether it is a model specific issue first.

Agreed. And easily done by any of Alstom's customers.

And not to pick on Alstom or Bombardier, as the TTC's streetcars seem to be working well. I proudly show off our new streetcars to anyone who visits TO, and every time I see the Crosstown running on test my heart leaps a little in anticipation of riding the system and of how it will positively transform Eglinton east of Laird. I foresee massive residential growth in the Golden Mile area thanks to this new system. I'm a Crosstown fan through and through. Just get the damn thing running.

A note on mergers and acquisitions. The reason you acquire a company is to increase profit and reduce competition. Once acquired, the new owner must push for synergies, efficacies and cost cutting by consolidating sales, administration, R&D, QA, manufacturing, procurement, parts, and logistics. As mentioned above, vehicles produced before the merger will have no common parts, so any failures in Ottawa do not impact Bombardier's pre-merger vehicles. It's after any merger where we can expect to see consideration of design changes to allow for commonality of components between newly merge companies. If a future Metrolinx order of Flexity streetcars for the TTC does not have some cost-cutting shared corporate components then the merger has failed Alstom's shareholders.

I have experienced this directly in my own career in construction products, where we acquired a competitor's power tool brand and factory, and our engineers and accountants quickly got to work to consolidate the two distinct firms, introducing design changes so that the acquired brand would use our control modules and components even though final assembly remained at the acquired firm's original factory, resulting in little outward change visible to the customers or market. The customer would say, "yes our favourite brand was acquired, but it's still made at factory X and not at the new owner's plant Y, so our trust in the original brand is assured". Meanwhile our accountants and engineers continued to creep forward, to the point that within five years there was little distinction between the two brands other than the exterior cases and stickers.

In this light I think it would be understandable for Metrolinx to ask Alstom if the bearing issue is isolated to Ottawa's system or if those components or QA processes have been propagated across their network.

 

[crs1026]

Agreed. And easily done by any of Alstom's customers.

And not to pick on Alstom or Bombardier, as the TTC's streetcars seem to be working well. The reason you acquire a company is to push for synergies, efficacies and cost cutting by consolidating sales, administration, R&D, QA, manufacturing, procurement, parts, and logistics. As mentioned above, vehicles produced before the merger will have no common parts, so any failures in Ottawa do not impact Bombardier's vehicles. It's after any merger where we can expect to see consideration of design changes to allow for commonality of components between newly merge companies. In this light I think it would be understandable for Metrolinx to ask Alstom if the bearing issue is isolated to Ottawa's system.

One has to assume that the bearing assemblies on TTC Flexities are considerably different than those on the Alstom vehicles, and have had plenty of inspections over the last decade. If there were any evidence of wear or failure, the TTC would have lots of it by now. The failure modes may not be comparable.
If my VHS tape player is eating tapes, I'm not sure that I need to check my Cd player for a similar defect, even if Sony now owns both manufacturers.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

If my VHS tape player is eating tapes, I'm not sure that I need to check my Cd player for a similar defect, even if Sony now owns both manufacturers.

That's a good example taking me back to my youth, but not one of a merger, since Sony always owned both manufacturers. A more apt example would be in the mid-1990s when Ford acquired Jaguar and Land Rover and we began to see Ford's engines and systems creep into both brands' vehicles, including the 1996 replacement of the famous and reliable 1970's era Rover V8 with a rubbish Ford V8, prone to bearing failure and crankshaft snapping (one of my favourite YouTube channels describes this well).

I saw this myself, with Ford's partial ownership of Mazda, where our 2000 Mazda MPV minivan kept experiencing ignition coil failures, which is odd for a Japanese brand.... until I was told that the engine with all its coils and systems was from Ford (found on road dead, as they say).

 

[fanoftoronto]

That's a good example taking me back to my youth, but not one of a merger, since Sony always owned both manufacturers. A more apt example would be in the mid-1990s when Ford acquired Jaguar and Land Rover and we began to see Ford's engines and systems creep into both brands' vehicles, including the 1996 replacement of the famous and reliable 1970's era Rover V8 with a rubbish Ford V8, prone to bearing failure and crankshaft snapping (one of my favourite YouTube channels describes this well).

I saw this myself, with Ford's partial ownership of Mazda, where our 2000 Mazda MPV minivan kept experiencing ignition coil failures, which is odd for a Japanese brand.... until I was told that the engine with all its coils and systems was from Ford (found on road dead, as they say).

Yes, but in your example, would you have been worried of a Land Rover designed and built in 1991 having the shitty Ford engines? Also, from my research, Ford took over Land Rover in 2000 not the mid-90s.

The Flexity Freedom LRVs for the Crosstown were designed and also mostly built prior to Alstom taking over the transportation division of Bombardier in Jan 2021. How would there be creeping of Alstom issues into these Bombardier designed and built LRVs?

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Flexity Freedom LRVs for the Crosstown were designed and also mostly built prior to Alstom taking over the transportation division of Bombardier in Jan 2021. How would there be creeping of Alstom issues into these Bombardier designed and built LRVs?

There may well be no Alstom issues, you don't get to be a leader by making shite. But there will have been changes in design process, procurement, manufacturing and QA as Alstom took over - not necessarily good or bad, just different. FWIW, I think I have you question covered above, and below.

As mentioned above, vehicles produced before the merger will have no common parts, so any failures in Ottawa do not impact Bombardier's pre-merger vehicles. It's after any merger where we can expect to see consideration of design changes to allow for commonality of components between newly merge companies. If a future Metrolinx order of Flexity streetcars for the TTC does not have some cost-cutting shared corporate components then the merger has failed Alstom's shareholders.

 

[fanoftoronto]

There may well be no Alstom issues, you don't get to be a leader by making shite. But there will have been changes in design process, procurement, manufacturing and QA as Alstom took over - not necessarily good or bad, just different. FWIW, I think I have you question covered above, and below.

Fair enough. I would add that there wouldn't be a lot of modifications possible after Alstom takeover either for an order that was in progress. Bombardier would've signed contracts back in 2013 (when they received the order from Metrolinx for the Crosstown LRVs) with all vendors to secure the best price possible. Those contracts will have clauses which would discourage reducing quantities or total value. Meaning even if Alstom might've made savings using common components, they would have been better off starting that only from the next Flexity Freedom order.

And to your point, Alstom has thousands of LRVs around the world working fine so they should be doing somethings right. Alstom should be retroactively making sure such issues aren't present in their current LRV production lines.

Unless they're like Boeing and spend more time hiring hitmen to take out whistleblowers (allegedly) instead of getting their shit together!

 

[Admiral Beez]

Fair enough. I would add that there wouldn't be a lot of modifications possible after Alstom takeover either for an order that was in progress. Bombardier would've signed contracts back in 2013 (when they received the order from Metrolinx for the Crosstown LRVs) with all vendors to secure the best price possible. Those contracts will have clauses which would discourage reducing quantities or total value. Meaning even if Alstom might've made savings using common components, they would have been better off starting that only from the next Flexity Freedom order.

Good points. As for contracts, are the frames for the Bombardier models still made in Mexico? I recall that was an issue with Mexican-sourced components for the Flexity models, but that might have just been growing pains at the onset. I wonder if Alstom will keep that Mexican plant? Wikipedia says it makes 70% of the railed vehicles in Mexico, so it's likely untouchable unless Alstom already had excess capacity in Mexico. Certainly the marketing appears to promote the plant https://www.alstom.com/alstom-mexico. I imagine Bombardier's Thunder Bay employees are jealous of such support from their new corporate overlords.

 

[turbanplanner]

Fair enough. I would add that there wouldn't be a lot of modifications possible after Alstom takeover either for an order that was in progress. Bombardier would've signed contracts back in 2013 (when they received the order from Metrolinx for the Crosstown LRVs) with all vendors to secure the best price possible. Those contracts will have clauses which would discourage reducing quantities or total value. Meaning even if Alstom might've made savings using common components, they would have been better off starting that only from the next Flexity Freedom order.

And to your point, Alstom has thousands of LRVs around the world working fine so they should be doing somethings right. Alstom should be retroactively making sure such issues aren't present in their current LRV production lines.

Unless they're like Boeing and spend more time hiring hitmen to take out whistleblowers (allegedly) instead of getting their shit together!

As a pilot the Boeing hit man stuff is totally media fud, one dude fought a company for several years and the other whistleblower last testified in 2019 and died of a disease in hospital