The Future of Bombardier

[aquateam]

Can you rephrase this or add more parameters? It's missing context to reference. You qualify your query by stating "this decade", and I'm clearly on record of (gist) "agreeing with all the claims above", but here's retrospect, and this is still ongoing to varying degrees:

To be fair, all the outcry from this deal is what lead to the streetcar order being open tender. And now, Ontario goes out of its way to buy vehicles from other manufacturers at a worse cost just to avoid relying solely on Bombardier.

And it's not just subjective anecdotes, Quebec really does practice corporate welfare to a much larger extent than other provinces:

Quebec Is Still a Corporate Subsidy Champion

Now confirmed to be 153 cars / 17 trains, because that's the largest amount of extra Azur trains that the STM's existing maintenance facilities can handle.

Price will be negotiated later, but is estimated at 350 millions or more

That means 200 Bombardier jobs maintained for 18 more months in La Pocatière

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1103901/metro-montreal-stm-153-wagons-trains-azur-ligne-verte

The article doesn't mention the job implications for the Alstom plant in Sorel, which still had somewhere around 100 employees working on the Azur train project.

Interestingly, before this new contract was arranged, Alstom had already announced last month that 80 jobs would be maintained in Sorel after the Azur contract ended in november 2018, because they're producing some of the Santiago metro bogies and some work on the Ottawa/Metrolinx LRV contracts.

Ah, so they won't be buying trains to fill the 10 new spaces from the big new underground garage currently under construction?

 

[nephersir7]

Ah, so they won't be buying trains to fill the 10 new spaces from the big new underground garage currently under construction?

That garage is being built to handle the fleet expansion from the initial order.

This new politically-motivated train order simply means that 17 MR73 trains will get scrapped now instead of being refurbished to last 15-20 more years like the STM wanted.

 

[steveintoronto]

And now, Ontario goes out of its way to buy vehicles from other manufacturers at a worse cost just to avoid relying solely on Bombardier.

That's not the gist of it:

TORONTO — The Ontario government has turned to a French manufacturer for light-rail vehicles as a backup plan if Bombardier fails to deliver railcars for transit projects in Toronto — a significant concern the provincial transit agency has been raising for months.

In an announcement on Friday, the provincial government said it had reached a $528-million agreement to buy 61 light-rail vehicles from Alstom in case plane and train maker Bombardier is found to be in default at the end of a court-ordered dispute resolution process.
[...]

- : the link you provided.

This has nothing to do with reducing Ontario assembled/partly built content, in fact Alstom opened a plant in Brampton to satisfy the domestic content.
Newsroom : New Brampton Facility will Support Over 600 Jobs

It's everything to do with a supplier unable to fulfill a contract as written to the detriment of the operations of many Ontario LRTs.

 

[aquateam]

That's not the gist of it:

- : the link you provided.

This has nothing to do with reducing Ontario assembled/partly built content, in fact Alstom opened a plant in Brampton to satisfy the domestic content.
Newsroom : New Brampton Facility will Support Over 600 Jobs

It's everything to do with a supplier unable to fulfill a contract as written to the detriment of the operations of many Ontario LRTs.

You're right, nowhere in the link does it say that awarding the contract was to reduce the amount of Ontario content. That's because nowhere in my post do I make that claim.

To be fair, all the outcry from this deal is what lead to the streetcar order being open tender. And now, Ontario goes out of its way to buy vehicles from other manufacturers at a worse cost just to avoid relying solely on Bombardier.

I was pretty clear that it was about reducing reliance on Bombardier and opening up the playing field to other companies.

 

[steveintoronto]

aquateam said: ↑

To be fair, all the outcry from this deal is what lead to the streetcar order being open tender. And now, Ontario goes out of its way to buy vehicles from other manufacturers at a worse cost just to avoid relying solely on Bombardier.

Bombardier has inside track for TTC’s next streetcar order
By BEN SPURR Transportation Reporter
Wed., June 6, 2018

[...]
But a presentation attached to the report suggests the TTC’s urgent need for new cars means Bombardier has a significant advantage over its competitors.

The Flexity-model vehicles the company is the midst of delivering already fit the TTC’s specifications, and according to the report, Bombardier could start delivering the additional cars midway through 2020.

If the TTC went with another company, it would likely have to put the purchase out to a public bid, and it doesn’t expect to be able to award a new contract until late 2020. [...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...side-track-for-ttcs-next-streetcar-order.html

 

[TOareaFan]

The C series got a huge vote of confidence the other day......the launch partner for the CS300 (Air Baltic) has placed an order for an additional 30 planes with options for another 30......they believe the plane offers them large operational advantages and they intend to be operating a fleet that is 100% BBD C series.

Other airlines will note this reaction from someone who has operated the planes for a while.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Canada’s Via Rail picks German company over Bombardier for $742M rail car order
https://www.thestar.com/business/20...to-give-order-to-siemens-over-bombardier.html

Well, Bombardier, this is called the chickens coming home to roost. Didn't you think there would be consequences for massive delays to Toronto's streetcars and LRTs, and fighting MetroLinx in court over the Eglinton LRT? Didn't you think that those responsible for the VIA bid would talk and consult with MetroLinx?

Fool us once, shame on you, but fool us twice....

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Canada’s Via Rail picks German company over Bombardier for $742M rail car order
https://www.thestar.com/business/20...to-give-order-to-siemens-over-bombardier.html

Well, Bombardier, this is called the chickens coming home to roost. Didn't you think there would be consequences for massive delays to Toronto's streetcars and LRTs, and fighting MetroLinx in court over the Eglinton LRT? Didn't you think that those responsible for the VIA bid would talk and consult with MetroLinx?

Fool us once, shame on you, but fool us twice....

Does bombardier even make a similar product to what via rail is ordering? Plus how do you know how or why a bid was rejected from them?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Does bombardier even make a similar product to what via rail is ordering? Plus how do you know how or why a bid was rejected from them?

It was announced on CBC Radio this morning that a top condition of VIA's bid was a proven ability and history to deliver quality rail product on time and on budget. They made no specific mention of the TTC/Metrolinx delays, and BBR may or may not have a good record of delivering the bi-level cars for GoTransit and elsewhere, so I admit I have to make some assumptions.

As for your question about BBR being able to produce what VIA was looking for...... I have to surmise that BBR wouldn't have submitted a tender if they couldn't or didn't make a similar product.

 

[cplchanb]

i wouldnt be too quick to dismiss yet... they just won a tender for new jersey transit for similar if not higher value.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Canada’s Via Rail picks German company over Bombardier for $742M rail car order
https://www.thestar.com/business/20...to-give-order-to-siemens-over-bombardier.html

Well, Bombardier, this is called the chickens coming home to roost. Didn't you think there would be consequences for massive delays to Toronto's streetcars and LRTs, and fighting MetroLinx in court over the Eglinton LRT? Didn't you think that those responsible for the VIA bid would talk and consult with MetroLinx?

Fool us once, shame on you, but fool us twice....

Bombardier has a better record than you are seeing in the media, especially on heavy rail products.

i wouldnt be too quick to dismiss yet... they just won a tender for new jersey transit for similar if not higher value.

that order was for 113 Multilevel III EMUs with an option for 636 Multilevel III passenger coaches. Via had a requirement for a diesel locomotive (with a sleek nose) propelled trainset with single-level accessible passenger coaches and cab cars styled with similar profile as the locomotives. Bombardier would have taken longer to design a suitable locomotive and cab car whereas the Siemens Charger locomotives being used for the VIA order were already in production and only required a small number of design modifications to meet VIAs requirements.

 

[M636RF]

Does bombardier even make a similar product to what via rail is ordering? Plus how do you know how or why a bid was rejected from them?

I'm sure they could have put something together, like for instance a diesel version of the ALP-45DP and some single level cars. The problem is that unlike Siemens, the equipment they likely proposed would have needed significant modifications to meet VIA's requirements (which would add more time to the production process, and of course that's just assuming there are no delays).

 

[nfitz]

i wouldnt be too quick to dismiss yet... they just won a tender for new jersey transit for similar if not higher value.

But what will that do for the Ontario plants? I can't see them keeping all of La Pocatiere in Quebec, Kingston, and Thunder Bay going without a significant order soon.

I'm guessing Thunder Bay will be history, given the recent expansions in Kingston, unless they think they can get the next TTC subway car order. Perhaps they'll negotiate the additional 60-car TTC order, to do it slower, using the one production line in Kingston, rather than the two in Thunder Bay. Each line seems to be able to do up to about 30 cars a year.

 

[drum118]

But what will that do for the Canadian plants? I can't see them keeping all of La Pocatiere, Kingston, and Thunder Bay going without a significant order soon.

I'm guessing Thunder Bay will be history, given the recent expansions in Kingston, unless they think they can get the next TTC subway car order. Perhaps they'll negotiate the additional 60-car TTC order, to do it slower, using the one production line in Kingston, rather than the two in Thunder Bay. Each line seems to be able to do up to about 30 cars a year.

Come 2020, there is nothing on the books at this time to keep Thunder Bay open. Kingston got the cars for the new line out in BC to do. If TTC does give BBD an order for more cars, it only pushing things down the road for a year or 2 for Thunder Bay.

Even though the US is building more LRT lines, BBD has yet to pickup an order for them. If they pickup an order, how do they meet the 70% rule when things have been moved to Canada because of Mexico screw up, other than shipping them there??

The order BBD got for 113 EMU for New Jersey will be done in the US and a drop in the bucket for the US plants..

The only way BBD can do TTC next batch of subway trains for Line 1 is to have both TTC and the Province fast forward an order that is not schedule until 2026+ at this time. I am sure TTC would like to see other bidders and a new supplier based on BBD track recorder for over the past 12 years.

We still don't know what Ford is going to do for RER as well electrifying the corridors.

Once the cars are done for Montreal, what will be next for the Quebec plant?

The expansions and new lines for Calgary will see cars for them come from the US.

BBD does have rolling stock that does meet VIA Rail requirement.

 

[M636RF]

But what will that do for the Canadian plants? I can't see them keeping all of La Pocatiere, Kingston, and Thunder Bay going without a significant order soon.

I'm guessing Thunder Bay will be history, given the recent expansions in Kingston, unless they think they can get the next TTC subway car order. Perhaps they'll negotiate the additional 60-car TTC order, to do it slower, using the one production line in Kingston, rather than the two in Thunder Bay. Each line seems to be able to do up to about 30 cars a year.

Unless things change, the Multilevel carbody shells are built in La Pocatiere before being shipped south to Plattsburgh for assembly. The Quebec plant is also fixing the TTC Flexities with welding issues, and rebuilding some of VIA's stainless steel cars.

Kingston builds automated light metros and monorails for the export market, so that might be enough to sustain it. Thunder Bay may be in trouble however, if additional orders aren't received.