The Future of Bombardier

[Admiral Beez]

All in all, I hate to rag on our national producer of passenger rail vehicles. If they were delivering the streetcars and Metrolinks LRTs on schedule to specified quality I’d be trumpeting them to all that would listen. I wish Bombardier well. Now get your house in order.

 

[Admiral Beez]

So, what? Sacrifice jobs in TBay (and/or Kingston) to accommodate unemployed in TO?

That's exactly what QP did in the inverse when they moved thousands of government offices to distant outposts of the province. Jobs that were previously downtown Toronto and GTA. It was done to give jobs to ruralites at the expense of downtowners.

 

[dowlingm]

So, what? Sacrifice jobs in TBay (and/or Kingston) to accommodate unemployed in TO?

Since there was not a streetcar line in TB before the tender, there were no jobs to be "lost" and a far less deep recruitment pool in TB (who would continue to build GO trains and subway cars in any event)

 

[lenaitch]

That's exactly what QP did in the inverse when they moved thousands of government offices to distant outposts of the province. Jobs that were previously downtown Toronto and GTA. It was done to give jobs to ruralites at the expense of downtowners.

I was part of that. Although I don't know all of the reasons, I'm certain the moves were for pragmatic (jobs=votes) and fiscal (cheaper operating costs, sale of surplus facilities) reasons. I don't have any figures but many of the personnel moved, more so for the 'professional' positions rather than the clerical or support positions which tended to be more second income -type jobs. Yes, it was employment lost to the GTA, but it seem to me to make sense that the Ontario government consider the economy of the entire province, not just one part of it.

Distant outposts? Peterborough? St. Catherines? Kingston?

Since there was not a streetcar line in TB before the tender, there were no jobs to be "lost" and a far less deep recruitment pool in TB (who would continue to build GO trains and subway cars in any event)

I would imagine a rolling stock production line is fairly consistent regardless of the specific product (within some limits).

Does Toronto/GTA want to go down the road of tying supply contracts to employment?

The recruitment pool might be smaller but I think it is reasonable for people to relocate to where the work is. How much of Toronto's/GTA's working population is made up of people who moved there for work? Besides, I get the sense from many that Toronto isn't really interested in heavy manufacturing, with their nasty trucks, trains and ships.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I would imagine a rolling stock production line is fairly consistent regardless of the specific product (within some limits).

I'm not so sure.

In Thunder Bay all the heavy rolling stock is unpowered, passenger cars. Bombardier hasn't made a diesel-powered train in decades.

Bi-level cars for GoTransit have little in common with powered streetcars and LRTs.

 

[nfitz]

Bombardier hasn't made a diesel-powered train in decades.

This is 100% not true.

Bombardier makes several different diesel locomotives, for different operators. While primarily freight, there are passenger examples, such as the dual-mode diesel-electric Bombardier locomotives operated in Montreal on the Mascouche line through Repentigny, and also in New Jersey on various commuter lines into Penn Station.

 

[drum118]

This is 100% not true.

Bombardier makes several different diesel locomotives, for different operators. While primarily freight, there are passenger examples, such as the dual-mode diesel-electric Bombardier locomotives operated in Montreal on the Mascouche line through Repentigny, and also in New Jersey on various commuter lines into Penn Station.

True, since they were built in the US, NOT Canada. None that I know of have been built in Canada since the LRC-1 in the 70's. They build mostly TRAXX in Europe these days.

 

[Admiral Beez]

This is 100% not true..

I’m referring to the Thunder Bay plant. The point of discussion above was whether or not the production line that makes the bi-levels had commonalities with powered streetcar production.

 

[dowlingm]

True, since they were built in the US, NOT Canada. None that I know of have been built in Canada since the LRC-1 in the 70's. They build mostly TRAXX in Europe these days.

I thought the 45s were built in the Kassel plant in Germany (presumably skirting Buy America type barriers on the grounds that no dual power tenders were received from US builders)

 

[smallspy]

Bi-level cars for GoTransit have little in common with powered streetcars and LRTs.

Well.....yes and no.

From an outsider's standpoint, yeah, they're very, very different vehicles.

But from a manufacturing standpoint, and considering that very little of either is actually fabricated in the Thunder Bay plant, it's really more of a case of one is a big Lego set of 1000 pieces, and the other one is a bigger one of 2000 pieces. The employees are "simply" inserting Tab A into Slot B - but the streetcars have more tabs and slots.

I thought the 45s were built in the Kassel plant in Germany (presumably skirting Buy America type barriers on the grounds that no dual power tenders were received from US builders)

The ALP45s were built in Kassel, with virtually nothing done to them here in North America beyond whatever PDI-type installations were done by NJT and AMT.

In fact, other than the GO single-level self-propelled cars of 1967, I can't find any reference to diesel-propelled rail equipment being built at Thunder Bay.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

If they were delivering the streetcars and Metrolinks LRTs on schedule

Yes, the Streetcars have been delayed by Bombardier the Metrolinx ones are the fault if Mettloinx for not reducing their order and changing the delivery specifications when the projects shrank. They had nowhere from them to be delivered to so how is Baomanabider responsible for that?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yes, the Streetcars have been delayed by Bombardier the Metrolinx ones are the fault if Mettloinx for not reducing their order and changing the delivery specifications when the projects shrank. They had nowhere from them to be delivered to so how is Baomanabider responsible for that?

Okay, that's the Baomanabider, JMFC that's a hard one to type, perspective. So, IYO, your named company is not at any fault for delays on LRTs to Metrolinx? Really?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Okay, that's the Baomanabider, JMFC that's a hard one to type, perspective. So, IYO, your named company is not at any fault for delays on LRTs to Metrolinx? Really?

I think the Metrolinx LRT's are kind of in a gray area as to who is at fault. Bombardier probably delayed starting work on them to focus on the TTC order as they knew that Metrolinx didn't need them as soon as possible, although it did end up having an effect on ION and Bombardier ended up having to deal with them directly rather than with Metrolinx as that was how the contract was written.

 

[rbt]

I think the Metrolinx LRT's are kind of in a gray area as to who is at fault.

Metrolinx legal certainly didn't negotiate as if they believed Bombardier was at fault.

No change in the total price but fewer cars on the order; that's not a deal you negotiate with a party you have leverage over.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Metrolinx legal certainly didn't negotiate as if they believed Bombardier was at fault.

No change in the total price but fewer cars on the order; that's not a deal you negotiate with a party you have leverage over.

Metrolinx blamed them because it was convenient and they needed a scapegoat to cover for the cancelled projects from the city of Toronto and the fact taht they wiou;dn't need as many LRVs. They wasited money by taking thjem to corrt and them with trher stupoid deal with Alstrom and the even stupoider one with Bomabderi it would have cost them less to make a change to the oraiganal contart insted of all the stupid stuff they did.