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Spadina Subway Extension

Re: Subway plan

I suppose that the york region transit would want the profits from busing up to those landmarks though, since i'd assume they will not get any money from subway fares

The subway actually wouldn't affect bus transit that much since the stops would be spaced a kilometre apart. Jane buses would still operate to serve the gaps. Since the subway's run by the TTC I suppose to connect with buses in YR, commuters would have to pay the local fare and vice versa much like VIVA operates today.

Does anybody else think that this development is not very significant, why was the downtown ignored?

Yes a subway line through downtown Toronto was due circa 1940s. How can no one care about the half million commuters suffering there but continually stretch the proverbial olive branch out to sprawlly, sparse suburbanites? I believe it's not because they want to ignore it, it's because they realize it'd cost too much. If done properly, a Queen St subway can cost anywhere from 5-8 billion dollars, not chump change. I shudder to think how the city would've developed had BD not been built and Queen was. I'm sure by now it'd snake around the Former City of Metro Toronto (Lakeshore to Eglinton) encompassing every node imaginable.

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Yes making the downtown car free like London. The Queen Line along with or inclusive of jogs would make everywhere you'd want to go downtown accessible. Queen on the surface could become a greenspace, pedestrian friendly with whatever vehicular traffic bound for the core utilizing Richmond-Adelaide-Front.
 
John Barber: All aboard the Wal-Mart express!

An excellent article from John Barber about the Spadina extension from last weekend's G&M...

All aboard the Wal-Mart Express

Sorry, I'd post the whole article, but EZBoard hasn't let me post more than 3 sentences for months now. :evil
 
Re: John Barber: All aboard the Wal-Mart express!

All aboard the Wal-Mart Express

JOHN BARBER
E-mail John Barber

They say not to bite the hand that feeds you. But when the hand is always empty, there's nothing else to snack on. So let's make the point: For most of the people who actually use and rely on public transit in Toronto, this week's announcement of federal support for the Spadina subway extension is no good news. On the contrary, it is a virtual guarantee of further corrosion and thickening crowds on that part of the system real people actually use.

In the annals of politically motivated subways to nowhere, a local specialty, this one's a peach. Except for York University, there isn't a single destination or actual neighbourhood on the entire line. Most of the six new stations will serve as nothing more than parking lots for years to come. The terminus is a Wal-Mart store reputed to become something called the Vaughan Corporate Centre.

It takes some digging to find out how many people will actually use this new service. In last spring's provincial budget, Finance Minister Greg Sorbara claimed that the subway to his suburban riding would "remove" 30 million car trips a year by 2021, seven years after its expected opening. The TTC says that it will carry 30 million riders by 2021, some of whom will come off buses -- an entirely different proposition. The technical studies appear to say something different again.

A deeply buried appendix to the environmental assessment of the extension to York University predicts it will attract 5,500 northbound riders in the morning peak. Currently, 21,000 people a day ride the express buses between Downsview Station and York, suggesting that the extension will produce little ridership or revenue gain.

Print Edition - Section Front
Enlarge Image


As for the idea of developing the extension a further 2.5 kilometres past city limits to Wal-Mart, the TTC formerly dismissed it on the grounds that there were too few people or jobs located on the route.

"Therefore," it said on the extension website, "potential subway ridership is limited at this time."

That professional opinion changed abruptly the day Minister Sorbara announced the Wal-Mart Express, but York Region's early estimate of demand on its section of the extension clearly bears it out. By 2021, fewer than 3,000 people will ride the subway south to York during the morning peak, according to regional planners. Estimated daily boardings by then will be fewer than 15,000 people.

To put those numbers in perspective, 48,000 people a day currently ride the King streetcar. By 2021, the number of suburbanites riding York Region's first subway line will be the same as the number of Torontonians who currently -- right now, in 2007 -- jostle and cram onto the 47 Lansdowne bus.

But most of those suburban riders don't even exist today: They are assumed into the scenario on the expectation that, once the extension is finished, developers will finally build something besides parking lots and box stores on the barrens it traverses.

Even if they appeared in future decades and took 30 million rides a year on the $2-billion Spadina extension, however, there still wouldn't be enough of them to overcrowd two busy streetcar routes.

Sure, it will pay off in the long run -- when we are all dead. Subways always do. But for a city with immediate short-term needs, the Spadina extension represents a massive misallocation of resources.

It won't be the politicians who suffer the consequences, however. It will be the millions of real people who rely on the existing system today. Every nickel spent in the politicians' latest campaign to coax suburban motorists onto luxury transit is a nickel that doesn't buy new streetcars and buses, better service or greater accessibility for existing riders.

Not that there's anything wrong with coaxing motorists onto transit. In that respect, the new suburban bus services for which Ottawa also announced support this week are exemplary starter efforts -- just what the experts ordered.

But the experts long ago lost the authority to determine the TTC's priorities. When there is no money available, they recommend sensible plans. As soon as the prevailing politicians announce yet another subway to nowhere, they abandon all sense and fall in.

The last one to buck the trend was former TTC chief David Gunn, who essentially refused to build the Sheppard subway until the province gave him an equal amount of money to fix up the existing system.

When the Spadina line reached Downsview, he boycotted the opening of the new station, complaining that the extension did nothing but add operating costs the system could ill afford.

During his own tenure as TTC chief, Rick Ducharme ranted plenty about the need to support subway construction with real-estate development. But he's gone, too -- and the latest extension is proceeding absent any firmly linked land-use plans.

The current leaderless regime, happy for any funding whatsoever, stays quiet.

The last time the TTC built a subway to nowhere, it concurrently slashed service on surface routes across the city, eliminating many altogether, and raised fares relentlessly. Now the same dynamic is back in action.

Thank you, transit-friendly politicians.

jbarber@globeandmail.com
 
From the article:
"But most of those suburban riders don't even exist today"

On the contrary...thousands will take the Finch West bus to Finch West station, which should boost overall ridership in Jane & Finch and Rexdale. It's not unreasonable to assume transit use in Vaughan will also go up. In the long term, more York students might live along the Spadina corridor since it'll be so easy to get there. Large parking lots could easily add 10,000 rides a day. Sure, by the time it gets out to VCC, there won't be many people on it, but Toronto is probably the only city in the world where people demand a transit line be at capacity even at the terminus station.
 
I would bet that the old apartment towers along the Allen will become extremely popular among York students, generating further increases in ridership a few years after the line is built.
 
Looking at the Transit City map, it looks like the city has great plans for the York University area. Perhaps it might be time to plan York University as Toronto's next "city centre" along the lines of Scarborough Centre, North York Centre and Etobicoke Centre. York University might become a suburban version of Ryerson- a mixed use campus combining educational buildings with commercial and residential buildings.
 
Toronto is probably the only city in the world where people demand a transit line be at capacity even at the terminus station.
I look at it another way: Toronto is probably the only city in the world that builds subways relentlessly into the suburbs while ignoring downtown. The ridership numbers in Barber's column speak for themselves.
 
"Toronto is probably the only city in the world that builds subways relentlessly into the suburbs while ignoring downtown."

True, downtown is criminally ignored.

"The ridership numbers in Barber's column speak for themselves."

The numbers say about 100,000 people will use the extension on an averge weekday in 2021. That's not a trivial number. Hopefully, it'll flood downtown with even more people, forcing new projects downtown. If we didn't build transit lines that enable people to get from the suburbs to downtown quickly, there certainly wouldn't be the same degree of transit chaos downtown, and perhaps it would stay ignored.
 
I wonder what the chatter on this board would have been like had it somehow existed when network 2011 was announced...
 
^But allowing the workers who work in those VCC offices to have the choice to live downtown comfortably without need for a car. I can guarantee more York University Students will also choose to live downtown.
 
"Or possibly take offices from downtown to VCC?"

If they're gonna move from downtown to the 905, better they go to VCC than Brampton or along the 404 where virtually no one can get there without a car.

edit - I know several people who work in the VCC area now and would definitely take transit to work if they could...even with the Spadina extension, it'd take 3 transfers for them to get there, although that'll still be faster than driving on roads with some of the city's worst traffic.
 
From the Globe:

Dr. Gridlock
New subway about moving 905 voters

JEFF GRAY

A senior TTC official describes the planned Spadina subway extension into York Region as purely political, adding an expletive describing horse excrement for effect.

It's a megaproject pushed by the province, this official says, based not on sound transit planning but on a desire to attract suburban voters. He fears it will suck up all available public-transit funding for a decade, dimming hopes the Toronto Transit Commission's more economical light-rail plan will ever be more than lines on a map.

Mayor David Miller seems to have accepted the Spadina subway project, calling the terminus at Highway 7, now a Wal-Mart parking lot, an important future regional transit hub. Now that the federal government has approved its share of the $2-billion in funding, it looks like a done deal, and should be completed around 2014.

But for that $2-billion, Toronto gets very little, other than the added obligation to operate an expensive 8.7-kilometre subway line where cheaper light rail, or even a dedicated bus lane, could have handled the projected passengers.

Too bad the light-rail plan didn't get its splashy launch a few years ago. For about the same $2-billion being spent on Spadina, Toronto could complete the most expensive of its proposed new light-rail lines, a 31-kilometre, partially tunnelled Eglinton line from Pearson Airport to Kennedy Station, carrying an estimated 52 million riders a year by 2021.

That's about 20 million more than the estimated 30 million riders expected on the Spadina subway extension, and about 20 million of the Eglinton line's riders would be new to the system, the TTC estimates.

The Transit City plan's seven proposed new light-rail lines, likely costing $6-billion all together, would form a 120-kilometre network, spanning the entire city and carrying 175 million people a year, or almost six times the ridership of the Spadina subway extension for just three times the cost.

Enough numbers. Subways are fantastic in dense urban settings. Build them out into two-car-garage land, where the Spadina line currently ends, the argument goes, and you are using the wrong technology, swatting a mosquito with a two-by-four.

Light-rail transit, a 21st-century version of Toronto's lumbering streetcars running in dedicated lanes, can handle the foreseeable public-transit demand in the city's suburban areas, my angry TTC official believes, and are actually affordable. Cities across the U.S. and Europe are building light-rail systems for these reasons.

Another argument to which light-rail advocates point is the fact that Toronto has been trying to persuade other governments to re-invest in public transit for years.

While new money to keep the current system from collapsing has arrived, the cash needed to dramatically expand public transit to fight traffic congestion and actually meaningfully reduce greenhouse gases has not. Light rail is promoted as a good way to do much more with less.

Last week's federal budget suggests that the tough-talking TTC official's fears may be real: While it is near impossible to get a clear picture of how much money from Ottawa will be spent on public transit, until 2014, a large chunk of the new money from Ottawa for infrastructure is expected to go to the Spadina project. (There was no new public transit money in last week's Ontario budget.)

Decades from now, development along the Spadina route -- if governments lay down a hard line and ensure high-density condos and offices get built -- may produce enough riders to justify a subway. But it will be a long wait.

No one expects public transit in North America to turn a profit. But when people say the TTC should still be "run like a business," they have a point. What private business, with limited access to capital, would sink $2-billion into a project with such delayed and uncertain returns?

My mistake: Last week, I wrote that the Federation of Canadian Municipalities big city mayors' caucus was asking Ottawa for $4-billion a year in public transit funding. In fact, they are asking for an additional $2-billion from the federal government. The Canadian Urban Transit Association estimates that public transit agencies need $4-billion a year in total from all governments.

AoD
 

If you are to post a link, it should be accompanied with some description.

The link above is a Liberal-sponsored website that cites the NDP's opposition to the Spadina Subway expansion, and says that the NDP wants "to move us backwards". It asks visitors to sign a petition in favour of the subway expansion.

Comment: This is as bad as millerhighwayrobbery.com, and reeks of unprofessionalism and cheap attacks. I wonder if there are ridings that the Liberals are afraid of losing. Affected ridings all all Liberal include Sorbara's (Vaughan-King-Aurora) as well as York West (Mario Sergio) and, barely, York Centre (Monte Kwinter, a shoo-in).
 

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