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Spadina Subway Extension

^I agree with alot of what you're saying. If the system expands it's natural that the fares would increase. Zoning's okay if you live and work within the same fare zone but outside of that, and this applies to the majority of the 416 and GTA, it's a very precarious complication to most commuters. To get from Union to north of Finch under zoning rules one $2.75 fare becomes $4+. How does this benefit anyone?

GO and the TTC need to allow free interchange with transfers at all inner-416 stops, likewise GO and VIVA in York, GO and MT/BT Peel and GO and DRT in Durham. Integration should start on the local scale before region wide amalgamation.

In addition, it would allow for the ability to do PPP (public private partnerships) on future subway construction.
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That's a great idea, NYC probably wouldn't have such a large system without PPP. For Toronto I could see several companies helping to finance extensions to various corporate centres around the city: the Don Mills-Eglinton area, Airport Corporate Centre, Sherway Gardens even Sheppard-Markham. The best thing about private funding is that since funding isn't being delegated to several different projects at once, more care will be taken into station design, proximity, etc.
 
Is subway really the better way?


'Frustrated' TTC chair says money for line extension looks sexy but should go to further regional transit links
Mar 07, 2007 04:30 AM


Tess Kalinowski
TRANSPORTatION REPORTER

It is being hailed by federal and provincial politicians as a breakthrough in cutting commutes and greenhouse gas emissions across the Toronto region.

But transportation experts were less enthusiastic about yesterday's announcement of $962 million for Toronto-area transit, particularly the extension of the Spadina subway line into York Region.

To put it bluntly, the city would have spent the subway money differently.

"We're frustrated in some ways we don't get to decide where you spend the transit dollars," said TTC chair and Toronto Councillor Adam Giambrone.

"If we have limited dollars there are better ways to service more people and get more riders – or better serve existing riders – than the York subway,"

If he had the $2.1 billion the extension is expected to cost, Giambrone says he'd spend half finishing the Sheppard line.

The other half would be used to build a light rapid transit system – such as dedicated streetcar lines – that would criss-cross Toronto.

That's what the city's official plan calls for.

But subways are sexy, particularly at election time, although they're not necessarily the best or most cost-effective way to reduce gridlock, say the experts.

They say the 8.6-kilometre subway extension with six stops, including a high traffic hub at York University, won't do much to address the transit needs outlined in the city's official plan, particularly in Scarborough where the rapid transit system is near the end of its life.

Then there's the cost of construction. Subways cost about $150 million per running kilometre to build compared with about $30 million to $35 million per kilometre for light rail transit or $20 million to $25 million per kilometre for bus rapid transit, Giambrone said.

And the announcement offers no operating funding. What still needs to be negotiated is whether there will be an operating subsidy for the Spadina subway.

"Subways get older and are more expensive to maintain in the long run," said Giambrone, backing up Toronto Mayor David Miller's call Monday for a national transit plan that would feature sustained funding of about $2 billion annually.

Although the extension will make this the first time the subway has crossed Toronto's city borders, with two stops in York Region, it will be wholly owned and operated by the TTC, said Giambrone, with York paying part of the operating cost.

"The subway is significant inasmuch as it traverses municipal boundaries. (But) ... the really heavy lifting in terms of integration and co-ordination has yet to occur," said Rob MacIsaac, head of the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority.

Still, it remains to be seen how far the subway and the other investments in a Mississauga bus corridor, Brampton's rapid bus system, called AcceleRide, and enhancements to York's Viva rapid transit go toward improving regional transportation links, he said.

MacIsaac argues the region is so starved for transit it needs more of everything, including subways.

Of the 1,660 buses that run on the York University campus each day, about half are operated by the TTC.

The others are regional transit services, including about 500 GO buses.

The 87 per cent of York's 50,000 students and 10,000 employees who list a Toronto-area address are evenly split among 416 and 905 residents, said a university spokesperson.

"This is another political subway in the same vein as the Sheppard line was," said Ed Levy of BA Consulting Group.

--------------------------------------------

Giambrone knows the deal.
 
"If he had the $2.1 billion the extension is expected to cost, Giambrone says he'd spend half finishing the Sheppard line."

East or west? I don't think ~$1B will get it to STC, but it would get it over to Downsview. Unless he means "finish it" with streetcars...

"They say the 8.6-kilometre subway extension with six stops, including a high traffic hub at York University, won't do much to address the transit needs outlined in the city's official plan, particularly in Scarborough where the rapid transit system is near the end of its life."

It's worth noting that if Giambrone's serious about spending money in better places, we can always turn down the provincial and federal money, and add the money we would have spent on the York line to the over half billion dollars we're going to spend on RT "upgrades" and have enough combined for a Danforth line extension to STC, an extension that will have more riders than the York extension.
 
^ I don't think finishing it westward was seriously in the cards - the TTC has always pooh-poohed the idea - but I know what you mean about the price. Seems a little off.
 
Of course. I wondered how long it would be until the transit "supporters" and self-proclaimed "experts" come out of the woodwork to oppose the largest transit project in a decade.

I do agree that Sheppard should be completed, but why haven't we heard a peep from the city about that project until now? The only project with an EA is York U. They don't discuss Sheppard East at all, and then when they're given money for the only project they've planned, they complain that the province and feds didn't somehow guess that asking for York U means "Build Sheppard" instead.
 
Because transit planning is just as much a political process within the city as it is beyond it? One only need to look at the how Sheppard was chosen over Eglinton and the multi-level government jockeying. Also, I believe the RTES report was written during the Lastman era. Besides, why bother writing reports on projects (like DRL) which is politically a non-starter? It's not like the 2 senior levels of government are falling over themselves to fund projects like St. Clair, no?

Just because there is money for some forms of transit doesn't equate to money well spent, even if it is "officially" sanctioned. In fact, in the ideal world, both the Feds and the province should stop pulling the financial string and butt out of using transit as a pre-election goody.

AoD
 
It does make our 'thing' 8.6 kms longer though. Size does matter.
 
Of course. I wondered how long it would be until the transit "supporters" and self-proclaimed "experts" come out of the woodwork to oppose the largest transit project in a decade.
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Isn't that the issue though? Spending all the ducats one project vs. being able to spend on more projects that cost a lot less, like streetcar/LRT expansion. And what this expert opinion that chose spending the extra billion extending it to VCC instead of satsifying other transit capital needs that was 'expertly' deemed less important.
 
I love the revisionist history about Eglinton West somehow being the better subway route, with Sheppard chosen solely because of Lastman's machinations. Looking over newspaper articles and studies from the area, it's quite clear that Eglinton West is the "political" subway line. Sheppard East was a far busier bus route than Eglinton West, augmented by Finch East, the busiest route in the city. In the relatively impartial Network 2011 study, Eglinton West was said to not even be busy enough for a light rail line. It was supposed to be a busway. Suddenly, it was upgraded to a subway line, coincidentally when local MPP Bob Rae was elected premier.

I don't even agree that this is political decision-making within the city. Certainly Peter Li Preti's power and influence was not successful at making York U the only subway line on the city's drawing board. It's simply a complete lack of support for subway lines on the part of most councillors, particularly those downtown. If the Scarborough MPs and MPPs agitated for a subway the same way their Vaughan counterparts and York U did, there's no doubt that Sheppard East and/or an RT replacement subway would be seriously considered for funding. The most tragic thing is that replacing the RT with a subway may well have received funding from higher orders of government, potentially making it as inexpensive for the city as the go-it-alone refurbishment project.

It's a simple fact that the province and feds will only fund projects that the TTC offers them. The only project that the TTC has studied up to this point is a York subway. Even this vague web of streetcars has seen no serious study other than a map in the official plan. I don't think Sheppard East has even been discussed by any city councillor up to this point.

How does anybody know that a DRL would be a non-starter? Nobody has ever discussed it. Politicians like Smitherman, Graham and even Caplan (Don Valley West includes Thorncliffe Park) surely have as much power and influence as Greg Sorbara, if one believes that it's an entirely political game.
 
Sheppard East was a far busier bus route than Eglinton West, augmented by Finch East, the busiest route in the city.
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In 2001, before the Sheppard subway was built, the Eglinton West bus had higher ridership than the Sheppard East bus - 37,363 boardings per weekday compared to 36,543 - and the Sheppard East bus was a longer route as well. I do think Sheppard is good route for a subway but I still think you say is ridiculous.
 
Re: Eglinton West ridership - don't forget to subtract riders going between the Allen and Yonge, since that stretch wouldn't have gotten a subway...
 
I also think that you give Sorbara too little credit compared to Caplan or other ministers. Fantino got new jobs from the province twice - and it was widly thought Fantino would run against Sorbara.

The Spadina line had an EA from the city to Steeles, not Vaughan. The Vaughan extension was the big Sorbara Surprise.

Sorbara, as finance minister and McGuinty's best friend and former Liberal President, is the most powerful minister by far. Sometimes I would argue more powerful than McGuinty.
 
Of course there's no way the city would do an EA for an area outside the city.
 
You're right, spmarshall, that Greg Sorbara is very influential. Still, he didn't pull this subway line out of his ass. The EAs had already been completed, both by York Region and the City of Toronto. The same cannot be said of any other transit project in the 416 area. Starting an EA on any other subway line isn't even being discussed since the Scarborough Subway was shot down.

You raise an interesting question, andomano. Since the two municipalities will likely be designing the stations within their boundaries, I wonder if they will be different in appearance. It seems conceivable that York will choose to make the new VCC stop a showpiece. Since it's Vaughan, I'm picturing a lot of columns and classical statuary...

There is one aspect of the new subway that I find quite ridiculous: Sheppard West station. That thing is going to make Bessarion look like Finch. There really is nothing there other than a couple warehouses and the Sheppard West bus which runs at 15 minute frequencies or worse. The GO train operates four times a day, and it seems unlikely that any significant improvements will happen any time soon. They can't even build condos there since it's right on the flight path of the Downsview runway.
 
The Spadina line had an EA from the city to Steeles, not Vaughan. The Vaughan extension was the big Sorbara Surprise.
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Somewhat true but not completely. York Region has been actively working on the Spadina extension for some time, including plugging it in their official plans, and (I've heard) they've sett aside one of the better corridors (expect it to be a ditch like Yonge north of Bloor).

Toronto doesn't do EA's for projects in other municipalities, so you are right that Toronto did not have an EA in place for this corridor. Vaughn cannot start one until the placement of the Steeles West station and the tail tracks are defined, essentially under construction.

The concept of a subway to VCC has appeared in a number of York Region EA's for neighbouring projects like VIVA as a future upgrade.


Take note that Mississauga which had the least on the board for transit improvements has received virtually no funding for projects. York Region, the most aggressive with begging for funding, has received (per capita) the largest amount.

If you demand two apples, you might get one. If you demand two bushels of apples then you might receive one bushel.

Lesson for Toronto, kick off several additional EAs and demand funding for them all. Watch funding for 1/3rd of them come into place.
 
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