SmartTrack (Proposed)

[Paolo]

Wow, really? You do realize he's contesting your original point right?

Really? It sounded to me like he agreed with me, he even sent me a PM message telling me he was in agreement with me and told me to ignore any form post by vegeta sky line

 

[gweed123]

Really? It sounded to me like he agreed with me, he even sent me a PM message telling me he was in agreement with me and told me to ignore any form post by vegeta sky line

1) No, I was illustrating how ludicrous it was dismissing EMUs for back end pollution, while completely ignoring the enormous amount of back end pollution generated by using diesel.

2) I've sent no such PM.

 

[ShonTron]

Really? It sounded to me like he agreed with me, he even sent me a PM message telling me he was in agreement with me and told me to ignore any form post by vegeta sky line

Your posts are unreadable, you're adding nothing to the discussion, and you're now trolling.

Take a break, it's on us.

 

[mdrejhon]

Surprised anyone would even *think* of telling anyone to ignore vegeta_skyline's posts.

Newbies coming to this thread, realize some members here are actual GO train drivers -- vegata_skyline has a lot of inside about things going on at GO and Metrolinx -- and it is fun to read his posts. People like them commands respect for participating in these discussions.

Talk about walking up to Queen of England, and saying a four letter word, and spending a few nights in the slammer. Or being invited to a dinner with president, and then saying something mean/inappropriate. Watch out if you insult one of the sacred forum members.

Back to normal UrbanToronto buzz:

June 6 might be a sneak preview of what SmartTrack is possibly can become -- e.g. a large 8-car UPX-style EMU train? Even if you love SmartTrack but hate UPX (e.g. price, etc), we can see UPX as the first real in-service Multiple Unit train (of any kind) running at all-day 15-minute frequencies in GO corridors. Like it or not, this is the first-ever Metrolinx train with an all-day "walk up, hop on" near-subway-convenience frequency.

SmartTrack technology will probably have more in common with an electrified version of UPX, than a classic GO train, so it is worth taking a free UPX ride. The SmartTrack experience feeling more subway-ish, just like UPX feels more subway-ish than a GOtrain, and the faster acceleration,etc. There are free rides for locals on the UPX this coming June, if you haven't been paying attention to the UPX thread, as it warrants attention by SmartTrack or GO RER enthusiast.

The June 6 freebies are gone, but there's the June 14 Sunday late-morning-to-lunchtime freebie which is a walk-up freebie at both Weston and Bloor with hotdogs, and just hopping onto the train to try it out for free, and ride an actual Toronto train that contains a few future SmartTrack and GO RER elements (Multiple Unit, subway-style experience, all-day 15-minute frequency experience). Enjoy the sneak preview of the SmartTrack era!

 

[gweed123]

Surprised anyone would even think of telling anyone to ignore vegeta_skyline's posts.

Newbies coming to this thread, realize some of us are actual GO train drivers -- vegata_skyline has a lot of inside about things going on at GO and Metrolinx -- and it is fun to read his posts.

Agreed. He offers pretty much unparalleled insight on these boards with regards to GO operations. And thank you for pointing out that I wasn't agreeing with him, vegeta .

 

[vegeta_skyline]

^ No problem, just glad that distraction has been taken care of.

Surprised anyone would even *think* of telling anyone to ignore vegeta_skyline's posts.

lol, though to be fair to the guy(or gal), he was pretty much in his own little world already.

 

[tayser]

It's been interesting to read the single versus double deck arguments on here, just providing some technical info to back up what ssiguy2 is saying:

Smart Tracks is what everyone else usually calls suburban rail.

There are many such examples such as in German cities and the S-Bahn systems. If you want to understand what ST tracks is then probably the easiest comparisons in a newer world systems are the suburban rail systems of both Sydney and Melbourne.

Electrified one or two level trains with fewer stops than conventional subways but more than conventional commuter rail. Most have non-level crossings to keep the trains on time and the car traffic moving especially in Sydney who's suburban rail is 800km. The tickets are usually distance or zone based and are integrated with the local bus fares. They run about every 10 minutes in rush hour, 20-30 minutes during the day, and 30 to 60 minutes late night. The lines however meet at a central point downtown so as the lines intertwine closer to the city the trains become much more frequent such as GO trains do the closer you get to Union.

For the inner city/downtown population they offer subway level service {in both Melbourne and Sydney they converge into downtown tunnels} but due to the size of the system it also means people in far flung suburban areas still have a fast route downtown with far fewer transfers that most systems and better off peak/weekend service levels than standard commuter rail.

Sydney and Melbourne are both making get strides {like GO} to get rid of all the level crossings and when finally done they will effectively be huge subway/metro systems but with far lower frequency the further you go out of the city.

As rule of thumb, the station spacing in Melbourne's inner 10km ring is around 1km, denser on some lines (600-800m between the city and Clifton Hill), longer on others (1.2km from City to Caulfield) On some lines outside the inner 10km ring this rule of thumb applies, especially to northern or eastern routes. Same thing is happening with the Melbourne Metro Rail project which will have station spacing roughly every 1-1.5km as well (at one end the services will be permanently express onto the existing network and at the other there's a 2km distance between first surface station and next new underground station).

They're building stations which will be able to fit 9 x 24m cars in future (which is pushing the capex up: $9-11bil for 9km of tunnel / 5 stations), its going to be interesting to watch two great big gaping holes in the city's main drag where the line will connect with the rest of the network at the north and south end of the traiditional CBD.

The New South Wales Government actually removed level crossings way back in the 60s - Melbourne/Victoria was doing the same thing until someone had a brainfart and decided to divert the cash into Freeways instead. There's only 4-5 in Sydney metro and 100+ in Melbourne metro, new state government which is pushing Melbourne Metro Rail tunnel also has a target of 50 level crossing removals over 8 years ( 2 x terms of parliament).

Sydney's existing rail network: exclusively double deck. Melbourne's existing rail network: exclusively single deck (although we dabbled with a DD trial in the 90s). Imagine Toronto's subway trains running on a surface network, that's basically the best way to visualise the trains that run on Melbourne's network.

By way of helping you understand the type of trains which operate, here's a comparison of Mel/Syd trains to the new Toronto Rockets:

Melbourne

X'Trapolis 100 - http://vicsig.net/index.php?page=suburban&traintype=X'Trapolis
Height: 4.2m (includes pantograph/roof equipment)
Floor height (above railhead): 1.185m
Width: 3.05m
Formation: 4 x 24.5m Motor cars, 2 x 22.7m Trailer cars, arranged: M-T-M-M-T-M (2 x married pairs of 3 car trains)
Length: 143.4m
Seats: 524
Standing capacity: 266 (comfortable)
Total capacity: 790 (comfortable). 1394 (crush load) **
Minimum headways / signalling system: 150 seconds / 24 TPH
Theoretical maximum capacity per direction, per hour: 19,000 (comfortable), 33,450 (crush) **
Vintage: 2002
Manufacturer: Alstom

** over the past 5-10 years the three types of trains on Melbourne's network have progressively had seats ripped out and therefore more "comfortable" standing room is created and also more crush load capacity. A trial which will commence over the new few years on the Sandringham line (services on this line can operate independently of the rest of the network) there's going to be a new CBTC signalling system trialled where frequencies will probably come down to 90-100 seconds - if trial is successful, it'll be progressively rolled out across the entire network / 16 lines.

Toronto

Toronto Rocket http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Rocket https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Operating_Statistics/2013.jsp
Height: 3.137m
Floor height (above railhead): anyone care to fill the gap/point me in the direction where this data can be found?
Width: 3.14m
Formation: 6 x 23.19m cars
Length: 139.14m
Seats: ~400
Standing capacity: 700
Total capacity: 1100 (this is just off numbers I can find, I dare say TTC trains can crush a lot more?)
Minimum headways / signalling system: anyone care to fill the gap/point me in the direction where this data can be found?
Theoretical maximum capacity per direction, per hour: anyone care to fill the gap/point me in the direction where this data can be found?
Vintage: 2010
Manufacturer: Bombardier

Sydney

A Set / "Waratah" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Trains_A_set
Height: 4.40m (double deck and includes pantograph/roof equipment)
Width: 3.03m
Formation: 8 x 20m cars
Length: 163.14m
Seats: 896
Standing capacity: ~300
Total capacity: 1210 *
Minimum headways / signalling system: 180 seconds / 20 TPH *
Theoretical maximum capacity per direction, per hour: 24,200 (Crush will be higher). *
Vintage: 2011
Manufacturer: Reliance Rail

* In Sydney/NSW you will frequently hear politicians and others refer to "reliable frequency" - and these are the publicly available "reliable capacity" numbers/aspects. The fact of the matter is Sydney's existing network can handle more than 20 TPH / 180 second headways but crushing DDs with passengers, as we all know, slows boarding/alighting and therefore impacts capacity.

Based on my observation at some city circle stations up there I've seen trains run 90 seconds apart (a train will be at the platform and the next will be stopped, in the tunnel, 1-2 signal blocks behind the train at platform. This frequency of service is common on the city circle but the congestion quickly dissipates beyond the inner city as lines branch off one another).

At the end of the day it's a lot harder to get a better set of theoretical numbers for Sydney's actual capacity with DDs than it is compared to Melbourne's.

 

[dowlingm]

Whether SmartTrack is single or double deck will impact costs if Tory forces through an Eglinton West alignment, since tunnelling for even multilevel EMUs along the lines of what NJ Transit are looking at (max 14'6") plus 25kV AC clearances to train and structure is going to need an pretty massive TBM.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Cut and cover for an Eglinton West subway would be logical. There isn't much there anyways.

 

[sixrings]

I don't know how anyone can think eglinton west is going to happen. Unless tory is trumpp and is going to open his own billion dollar wallet to pay for it we simply don't have enough money. The gardiner vote is coming first but I really think it's his second priority. The scarborough subway is his first because that's where the votes are. Eglinton west is so far down the list and is easily covered by lrt. We just don't have enough money for everything.

 

[dowlingm]

Stouffville SmartTrack looks like priority 1 given the developments with the Scarborough subway alignment reworking. SmartTrack was on his campaign signs and integral to First Gulf development. The trouble for council is having allocated a tax to pay for Scarb subway the Fordiban will lose their minds if Council defers subway indefinitely.

 

[tayser]

Whether SmartTrack is single or double deck will impact costs if Tory forces through an Eglinton West alignment, since tunnelling for even multilevel EMUs along the lines of what NJ Transit are looking at (max 14'6") plus 25kV AC clearances to train and structure is going to need an pretty massive TBM.

The most recent tunnels that were built for Sydney's Doucble-deckers (DDs) have an internal diameter of 6.5m ("Epping-Chatswood railway"), the tunnels they're now building for the recently rebranded Sydney Metro, previously known as the North West Rail Link which will run Single deck (SD) trains, are 5.9m. The latest tunnels are 15km long, will have 5 stations and the civil works (boring tunnels, excavating station boxes etc) contract for that work is $1.1billion AUD (2013).

The new tunnels are going to be operational independently and the start of a driver-less metro. Part of the North West Rail Link actually involves converting the Epping-Chatswood line to use the Metro tech exclusively and they just announced the 2nd phase - a 2nd harbour rail crossing (tunnels) and the conversion of an existing line out to Bankstown in Sydney's South West.

Many of the local gunzel-foamers in Sydney are having two fits about the new metro line not having DDs run on them - they can't see the forest for the trees. DD capacity 20-24TPH, driver-less SD metro 30-40TPH - it's a no brainer.

At the end of the day there's less than a metre in the difference between the most recent tunnels and the new ones currently under construction - the difference between tunnels that can cater for DDs and/or SDs. New project info: www.sydneymetro.info

Despite "not much being in it", I'd still be choosing an SD type of train. Modern signalling systems can squeeze a lot of capacity out of rail lines these days and you want frequency over capacity from the outset; and driverless trains (or eventually moving to them) will lower operating costs.

 

[crs1026]

Cut and cover for an Eglinton West subway would be logical. There isn't much there anyways.

I think you meant to say, "There isn't anything on the surface that would constrain a cut and cover construction process"

The "not much there anyways" observation is true, but is more helpful to those who would like to see LRT on Eglinton and ST routed up the GO line to Bramalea.

- Paul

 

[SaugeenJunction]

So I just surprised myself and stumbled upon the different alignments that are being studied for SmartTrack on the City of Toronto website. I regret if it isn't too organized but here they are:

Link to site:http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=8805083e7cb9d410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD
Link to PowerPoint: http://www.slideshare.net/TorontoPC...toid=8805083e7cb9d410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

 

[Adjei]

When will these guys admit they were wrong with this Smart Track thing instead of trying to find all these useless workarounds in order to make it work?