SmartTrack (Proposed)

[hw621]

^This is assuming GO RER will move ahead....

 

[sixrings]

Where's eglinton west smarttrack? I'm very impatient with the delays

 

[Filip]

I attended the last meeting for the west end stations at Lithuania House.... by far the single most vocal issue was the concern over trains ringing bells at the stations, given the increased frequency of trains and the densities around these stations. Seemed like a reasonable concern after the UPE Bloor/Weston experience, and one which other countries have reasonable solutions for, eg instead of bells, use the platform PAs to warn of approaching trains.
I see this issue, while documented, has been neatly sidestepped.

- Paul

Agreed!

It's 2018 - enough with the old time ding ding ding - although it goes well with the frontier town aesthetic Toronto's urban form is known for.

 

[crs1026]

Where's eglinton west smarttrack? I'm very impatient with the delays

The last direction from City Council (here, Dec 5 2017) called for the next report back by Q2 2018.... which is about now.

Doesn't seem to be on the current Council meeting agenda. The next Council meeting is July 23rd.

- Paul

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Where's eglinton west smarttrack? I'm very impatient with the delays

The last direction from City Council (here, Dec 5 2017) called for the next report back by Q2 2018.... which is about now.

Doesn't seem to be on the current Council meeting agenda. The next Council meeting is July 23rd.

- Paul

The Eglinton West LRT Planning and Design contract is set to go out from Metrolinx, as part of the 2018-19 procurement plan. But there seems to be a lot of ironing out to do, and potential political meddling.

 

[ssiguy2]

I hope there is political meddling by Ford because on this one thing he is right...……….Eglinton should be a completely grade separated /subway system. Eglinton having at-street crossing for 40% of it`s length was Miller stupid and short-sighted idea who`s first priority was to `create complete streets` even though the DM to Kennedy station is mostly industrial/ heavy commercial and second priority being Miller was bound and determined to make sure Toronto had no new grade separated transit anywhere so that the system could not be automated and hence offend his union backers.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I hope there is political meddling by Ford because on this one thing he is right...……….Eglinton should be a completely grade separated /subway system. Eglinton having at-street crossing for 40% of it`s length was Miller stupid and short-sighted idea who`s first priority was to `create complete streets` even though the DM to Kennedy station is mostly industrial/ heavy commercial and second priority being Miller was bound and determined to make sure Toronto had no new grade separated transit anywhere so that the system could not be automated and hence offend his union backers.

Chicago's Brown Line, with level street crossings (near beginning) and surface, non-grade separated system.

 

[Rainforest]

I hope there is political meddling by Ford because on this one thing he is right...……….Eglinton should be a completely grade separated /subway system. Eglinton having at-street crossing for 40% of it`s length was Miller stupid and short-sighted idea who`s first priority was to `create complete streets` even though the DM to Kennedy station is mostly industrial/ heavy commercial and second priority being Miller was bound and determined to make sure Toronto had no new grade separated transit anywhere so that the system could not be automated and hence offend his union backers.

I am not a fan of putting 'complete streets' ahead of the transportation needs. On the other hand, one might ask if it is worth spending money for grade-separation on Eglinton East in the industrial/ heavy commercial areas, where just a few users conflict with the median light rail.

In any case, we already built the central section of Eglinton for medium-capacity (well below the subway capacity), and that means we need to be careful with adding too much grade separation at the edges. That might divert so much ridership from the parallel routes that the central section will be overwhelmed.

 

[crs1026]

That might divert so much ridership from the parallel routes that the central section will be overwhelmed.

Now, *that* would be a problem worth having !

With the line scalable for 3-car LRT trains, and closer headways, I wonder how long it would take for that to happen..... twenty five years?

- Paul

 

[rbt]

In any case, we already built the central section of Eglinton for medium-capacity (well below the subway capacity), and that means we need to be careful with adding too much grade separation at the edges. That might divert so much ridership from the parallel routes that the central section will be overwhelmed.

IMO, that's impossible within a 30 year period. Eglinton East + Eglinton West have similar potential capacity together as Yonge South after automation upgrades.

For Eglinton to be overwhelmed either a half the capacity of Yonge is used by Eglinton passengers (so 50% of Yonge trains short-turn at Elginton because that's as far as riders are going) OR Eglinton would need a wildly different ridership pattern than Bloor Danforth (where ~50% of passengers transfer southbound in the morning).

Additional southbound capacity (like the DRL to Eglinton and Don Mills) would significantly reduce pressure on the central portion of Eglinton too.


In short, I expect Eglinton capacity to be artificially reduced (by order of the fire chief) due to Yonge being overloaded long before Eglinton itself is at capacity.


Trains will be full of course (TTC doesn't run excess capacity very often); but it'll be full like Sheppard (standing room only trains but running at fraction of built capacity), not full like Yonge (where tunnels have actually reached their limit).


For Eglinton to hit built capacity before Yonge hits capacity, Eglinton & Yonge needs to become the new South Core.

EDIT: Actually, Eglinton will hit capacity if Bloor/Danforth was closed during weekdays; if an event took out the lower level of Yonge & Bloor without impacting the Yonge line. An at capacity Eglinton is still quite a bit better than shuttle buses and hopefully it'll be rare that Bloor/Danforth is unavailable for service.

 

[Leo_Chan]

IMO, that's impossible within a 30 year period. Eglinton East + Eglinton West have similar potential capacity together as Yonge South after automation upgrades.

For Eglinton to be overwhelmed either a large majority of the capacity of Yonge is used by Eglinton passengers (most Yonge trains short-turn at Elginton because that's as far as riders are going) OR Eglinton would need a wildly different ridership pattern than Bloor Danforth (where ~50% of passengers transfer southbound in the morning).

Additional southbound capacity (like the DRL to Eglinton and Don Mills) would significantly reduce pressure on the central portion of Eglinton too.


In short, I expect Eglinton capacity to be artificially reduced (by order of the fire chief) due to Yonge being overloaded long before Eglinton itself is at capacity.


Trains will be full of course (TTC doesn't run excess capacity very often); but it'll be full like Sheppard (standing room only trains but running at fraction of built capacity), not full like Yonge (where tunnels have actually reached their limit).


For Eglinton to hit built capacity before Yonge hits capacity, Eglinton & Yonge needs to become the new South Core with millions of sqft of office space built.

Eglinton Station can't be worse than Bloor-Yonge right? Or will the double single centre platforms not be able to handle the load?

 

[rbt]

Eglinton Station can't be worse than Bloor-Yonge right? Or will the double single centre platforms not be able to handle the load?

Eglinton station East/West will be fine.

Eglinton Station North/South is going to have very serious problems if the Crosstown line actually hits 30,000pph (combined East + West capacity). In fact, Yonge-Bloor might look quite pleasant by comparison; Yonge/Bloor has significantly more room on the Yonge platforms.

 

[BurlOak]

In any case, we already built the central section of Eglinton for medium-capacity (well below the subway capacity), and that means we need to be careful with adding too much grade separation at the edges. That might divert so much ridership from the parallel routes that the central section will be overwhelmed.

If you think about it, you're actually saying is that if we get people to communte with public transit it's a bad thing.
A transit line is designed to the number of people who want to use it, not sized to prevent people from using it.

 

[MisterF]

While I haven't seen the numbers, I would think that travel demand on Eglinton is more oriented to downtown than crosstown travel. Line 2 has the same problem, which is why Yonge-Bloor is so overcrowded. With the DRL and RER going directly downtown they're going to divert large numbers of riders who would otherwise take Eglinton all the way to Line 1. As long as those lines are built, I can't see Eglinton ever getting to the point where it's overcrowded.

 

[Rainforest]

If you think about it, you're actually saying is that if we get people to commute with public transit it's a bad thing.
A transit line is designed to the number of people who want to use it, not sized to prevent people from using it.

That's not the case though:

1) A large part of those additional riders on the faster Eglinton line would be switching from the Bloor subway. Thus, they are already on transit, and a reasonably good one.

2) By not spending a fortune on fully grade-separating Eglinton, we can direct the funds to other lines that will improve transit for other potential riders.

3) Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the decision not to build a full-fledged subway on Eglinton was a mistake. Even if so, then anyway we are stuck with the central section that has a capacity limit of 3-car trains / about 15k per hour per direction. By changing the design mid-way and making the outer sections faster, we would not be fixing the original mistake. On the contrary, we would be making it more profound if the result is pushing the line over its design capacity.

Either we should have built a subway under Eglinton, or we should stay within the chosen design paradigm and not change it in a way that makes the line operation problematic.

A full grade-separation is not desirable, IMO. But I am still in favor of relatively minor tweaks (at Martin Grove, Islingon, and maybe either Royal York or Jane) that could make the line a bit more appealing but would be short of massive ridership diversion from Bloor to Eglinton, or massive overspending.