SmartTrack (Proposed)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I am not a fan of putting 'complete streets' ahead of the transportation needs. On the other hand, one might ask if it is worth spending money for grade-separation on Eglinton East in the industrial/ heavy commercial areas, where just a few users conflict with the median light rail.

In any case, we already built the central section of Eglinton for medium-capacity (well below the subway capacity), and that means we need to be careful with adding too much grade separation at the edges. That might divert so much ridership from the parallel routes that the central section will be overwhelmed.

This is true. Another reason why DRL long needs to happen. And DRL west to Mt Dennis.

I hope there is political meddling by Ford because on this one thing he is right...……….Eglinton should be a completely grade separated /subway system. Eglinton having at-street crossing for 40% of it`s length was Miller stupid and short-sighted idea who`s first priority was to `create complete streets` even though the DM to Kennedy station is mostly industrial/ heavy commercial and second priority being Miller was bound and determined to make sure Toronto had no new grade separated transit anywhere so that the system could not be automated and hence offend his union backers.

And that's where the scarborough subway war began. If Eglinton was all underground, there would be no Scarborough subway debate.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That's not the case though:

1) A large part of those additional riders on the faster Eglinton line would be switching from the Bloor subway. Thus, they are already on transit, and a reasonably good one.

2) By not spending a fortune on fully grade-separating Eglinton, we can direct the funds to other lines that will improve transit for other potential riders.

3) Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the decision not to build a full-fledged subway on Eglinton was a mistake. Even if so, then anyway we are stuck with the central section that has a capacity limit of 3-car trains / about 15k per hour per direction. By changing the design mid-way and making the outer sections faster, we would not be fixing the original mistake. On the contrary, we would be making it more profound if the result is pushing the line over its design capacity.

Either we should have built a subway under Eglinton, or we should stay within the chosen design paradigm and not change it in a way that makes the line operation problematic.

A full grade-separation is not desirable, IMO. But I am still in favor of relatively minor tweaks (at Martin Grove, Islingon, and maybe either Royal York or Jane) that could make the line a bit more appealing but would be short of massive ridership diversion from Bloor to Eglinton, or massive overspending.

Some of the north-west passengers would have already switched to the Line 1 extension from York University and Vaughan.

 

[44 North]

I hope there is political meddling by Ford because on this one thing he is right...……….Eglinton should be a completely grade separated /subway system. Eglinton having at-street crossing for 40% of it`s length was Miller stupid and short-sighted idea who`s first priority was to `create complete streets` even though the DM to Kennedy station is mostly industrial/ heavy commercial and second priority being Miller was bound and determined to make sure Toronto had no new grade separated transit anywhere so that the system could not be automated and hence offend his union backers.

I agree that a grade-separated lighter subway system would've probably been wiser for Eglinton. But I still wouldn't discount the Crosstown we have today as short-sighted. One major bonus is that it can tie in well with Mississauga Transitway, as it was planned to do +30yrs ago. Granted, had Eglinton been built as subway tech Sauga likely would've fully grade-separated their transitway in anticipation.

3) Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the decision not to build a full-fledged subway on Eglinton was a mistake. Even if so, then anyway we are stuck with the central section that has a capacity limit of 3-car trains / about 15k per hour per direction. By changing the design mid-way and making the outer sections faster, we would not be fixing the original mistake. On the contrary, we would be making it more profound if the result is pushing the line over its design capacity.

Is that capacity right though? Keep in mind with the system we're planning today, the underground portion will be automated and capable of very high frequency (and capacity). With a full grade-separated line with no branches that high capacity should carry through end-to-end. In such a scenario we'd be fools not opt for a high-floor vehicle, which naturally bumps capacity even higher. A 4-car subway every 1:30 I don't think we'd ever have to worry about crowding on Eglinton. Renforth to Markham/Sheppard @ +20kpphpd, Pearson or Winston Churchill to Renforth 10kpphpd each. Not bad.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Eglinton Station can't be worse than Bloor-Yonge right? Or will the double single centre platforms not be able to handle the load?

The transfer volumes at Eglinton-Yonge Station will be pretty low. Highest transfer volume is westbound Eglinton Line to southbound Yonge Line, at 1160 passengers in the peak hour. That's the capacity of one Toronto Rocket trainset. The southbound Yonge Line platform is already pretty crowded in the AM, but I don't imagine another 1,160 passengers over 60 minutes will dramatically change the situation. Population and employment growth in the Yonge-Eglinton area will probably play a much bigger role in exacerbating the crowding problems at Eglinton Station.

The introduction of the Relief Line North should pretty much obliterate the westbound to southbound transfer volume at Eglinton Station. It'll probably be in the 500 passengers per peak hour range when the DRL North opens. ATO will also bring significant crowding relief to Eglinton Station when its enabled.

 

[BurlOak]

(almost) Everyone here agrees that it was a colossal mistake that Eglinton was no made fully grade-separated. Shouldn't the new government explore the cost of correcting that mistake?

• I would suspect that platform height is already too late to change.
• I also suspect it's too late to change the train type, unless some complicated switch can be made by sending these trains to Ottawa, Kitchener, Mississauga, or Hamilton, and buying more suited trains for this line.
• With cross-over tracks at Laird, grade-separating the line from Brentcliffe to Kennedy trains could still use the Central portion of the "subway" and this construction would have zero effect on the opening date of the central portion.

I suspect the cost of grade-separation would be in the $1B to $2B range.

 

[nfitz]

(almost) Everyone here agrees that it was a colossal mistake that Eglinton was no made fully grade-separated.

Almost everyone? I don't see that at all, I see one or two posters, who don't even live in or near the area, continually saying the same thing, and then ignoring the majority that think they are wrong. Meanwhile the majority simply ignore these constant attempts to threadjack the discussion (what has it even go to do with this thread) with bizarre unrealistic and very expensive suggestions! Perhaps though, you'd like to create a poll, to see if you are correct that "(almost) everyone agrees!

Shouldn't the new government explore the cost ...

I'm quite sure the new government, will waste more money revisiting the past than put into any new efforts. But no - of course they shouldn't!

I suspect the cost of grade-separation would be in the $1B to $2B range.

Only using the new-fangled technique of building a 6-km line with no stations!

 

[micheal_can]

Almost everyone? I don't see that at all, I see one or two posters, who don't even live in or near the area, continually saying the same thing, and then ignoring the majority that think they are wrong. Meanwhile the majority simply ignore these constant attempts to threadjack the discussion (what has it even go to do with this thread) with bizarre unrealistic and very expensive suggestions! Perhaps though, you'd like to create a poll, to see if you are correct that "(almost) everyone agrees!

I'm quite sure the new government, will waste more money revisiting the past than put into any new efforts. But no - of course they shouldn't!

Only using the new-fangled technique of building a 6-km line with no stations!

Why are we even talking Crosstown? This is for Smart track and it will be built as heavy rail, fully grade separated.

 

[hw621]

Why are we even talking Crosstown? This is for Smart track and it will be built as heavy rail, fully grade separated.

Eglinton West is part of Smart Track

 

[micheal_can]

Eglinton West is part of Smart Track

Uhm.. since when?
Are they now gonna try to run LRT trains on heavy rail lines?

 

[nfitz]

Uhm.. since when?
Are they now gonna try to run LRT trains on heavy rail lines?

It was back in 2014 when John Tory campaigned on it - but it's been a separate project for some time. It's not even mentioned in the latest SmartTrack updates to council. It's now a separate project, called Eglinton West LRT and has it's own website - http://www.eglintonwestlrt.ca/

As time progresses, the links between the two projects have been vanishing.

 

[micheal_can]

It was back in 2014 when John Tory campaigned on it - but it's been a separate project for some time. It's not even mentioned in the latest SmartTrack updates to council. It's now a separate project, called Eglinton West LRT and has it's own website - http://www.eglintonwestlrt.ca/

As time progresses, the links between the two projects have been vanishing.

I thought Smart Track was basically conversion of the Stouffville and Kitchener lines within the city of Toronto. Am I wrong?

 

[nfitz]

I thought Smart Track was basically conversion of the Stouffville and Kitchener lines within the city of Toronto. Am I wrong?

John Tory promised it would be a separate frequent service from Unionville to Mount Dennis, that would turn west along Eglinton towards the airport.

All it is now, is some new GO Stations for the RER service. And I expect that will diminish further, as the new government starts delaying and removing capital funding.

 

[crs1026]

I thought Smart Track was basically conversion of the Stouffville and Kitchener lines within the city of Toronto. Am I wrong?

It had a third piece. The Kitchener line segment was only to go as far as Mount Dennis. Tory proposed a new heavy rail line branching off from the Kitchener line at Mount Dennis, over to the airport commercial area west of Renforth. There was a study that confirmed that a heavy rail line would make a mess of the Mt Dennis area, and everywhere west also. It was a really dumb idea.

The saw-off was to use LRT as an extension of Crosstown instead.... which had been the original Crosstown plan, Until McGuinty cut back the Crosstown scope to Mt Dennis.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The saw-off was to use LRT as an extension of Crosstown instead.... which had been the original Crosstown plan, Until McGuinty cut back the Crosstown scope to Mt Dennis.

I don't think the scope was cut back. It was deferred. The report announcing that it would stop at Mount Dennis or Jane, referred to the next pieces as Phase 2. Ditto for the piece of Finch from Keele to Don Mills Road, Sheppard East past Morningside, and the SRT north of Sheppard.

 

[crs1026]

^I wonder where that map was when Tory accepted the recommendation to build LRT and not heavy rail.
Had he said “we want Dalton’s Phase II put back on the table” instead of “we want Smarttrack to the airport”, he could have passed the bill to Wynne.
Either he gave away the ship, or it was well understood that Dalton’s Phase II was never going to happen, ie the deferral was a cancellation in disguise.

- Paul