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SmartTrack (Proposed)

hw621 said:
I really don't like the comments targeting 905 commuters. Just consider the express trains provincially funded GO RER.
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I wonder if this would be the same reaction if they were to quadruple track Yonge, and trains only stop at interchange stations and all stations south of Bloor, while the normal service is less frequent.

I know this is a poor comparison, as Yonge is existing infrastructure while Lawrence East and Finch East are new stations (including Agincourt and Milliken being bypassed). Both would be mad, but I do see how people would be mad that local ST trains replacing the local SRT.

One thing to point out is that the express trains are less frequent than the local trains, and this might not have been specifically said at the session.
 
robmausser said:
I feel like the real elephant in the room is the Scarborough Subway, not Smarttrack.

If Smarttrack was still built, without Lawrence station, and the Scarborough LRT instead, none of the issues brought up would be a concern.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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This is the problem with pushing through proposals for political purposes.

Both SmartTrack and the SSE do almost nothing to address inter-Scarborough travel.

Plenty of Scarborough residents seem confused as to what's remaining and what goes when they scrap the RT.

You're right - if they built the LRT, which had more stops than the RT, and then built SmartTrack to address downtown travel times, there'd be no issues.
 
syn said:
This is the problem with pushing through proposals for political purposes.

Both SmartTrack and the SSE do almost nothing to address inter-Scarborough travel.

Plenty of Scarborough residents seem confused as to what's remaining and what goes when they scrap the RT.

You're right - if they built the LRT, which had more stops than the RT, and then built SmartTrack to address downtown travel times, there'd be no issues.
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Scarborough LRT with extension to Malvern, cancel Smarttrack stop at Lawerence, keep it at Finch, Eglinton East extension and Sheppard LRT would cost same as current proposal (Scarb subway, Smarttrack stop at Lawerence and Finch and Eglinton East LRT extension) and provide much better service.
 
robmausser said:
Scarborough LRT with extension to Malvern, cancel Smarttrack stop at Lawerence, keep it at Finch, Eglinton East extension and Sheppard LRT would cost same as current proposal (Scarb subway, Smarttrack stop at Lawerence and Finch and Eglinton East LRT extension) and provide much better service.
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Scarborough LRT instead of the subway will not provide better service, and won't be accepted. People are tired of double trasfers, bus to RT to subway.

On the other hand, if Union-bound RER trains can be sent directly to Scarborough Centre, then the resulting network may be appealing enough to make the subway extension unnecessary.

That kind of plan has its own challenges, but isn't technically impossible.
 
1) Simply sending all "SmartTrack" trains to Scarborough Centre may be a workable solution. Regular GO trains (3 or 4 per hour) would continue to operate on the Uxbridge sub, serving Agincourt, Finch East, Milliken stations, as well as all stations in Markham.

At the same time, 4 "SmartTrack" trains per hour would serve Lawrence East Stn, and Scarborough Centre.

If large trains are used (AFAIK, a regular GO trains has capacity of about 2,000), then we would have 8,000 pphpd total capacity between STC and Kennedy. That's 50% more than today's SRT, and satisfies the latest demand estimate of 7,000 pphpd.

At Kennedy, some of the RER riders would alight and transfer to the BD subway or Eglinton LRT, leaving some room for more Union-bound riders boarding at Kennedy and at Main Stn.

But overall, that's not a perfect option: not much room for the further ridership growth, and large trains may not be optimal for service inside 416.

2) Option 2 is to add "Kennedy shuttles", running on the same rail tracks. The Uxbridge corridor is relatively wide between Kennedy Stn and Ellesmere, two pairs of tracks can fit there. In addition to 4 STC - Union trains and 3-4 Markham trains, we can have 4 or 8 smaller trains running between STC and Kennedy only.

The total capacity would depend on the train size; should be enough to handle the demand. For example if we have 4 Union trains per hour with capacity 1,500 each, and 8 shuttles with capacity 1,000, the total would be 14,000 pphpd.

3) Option 3 is same as Option 1, with an additional surface light rail line on Danforth / McCowan. The total capacity (STC to Kennedy) would be something like 11,000 pphpd (4 x 1,500 on RER, and about 5,000 on the surface light rail). Plus, that would provide a good list of choices for the riders. Those heading to the vicinity of Union, or even the Dundas West area, would wait for the RER train and get express ride. Riders transferring to BD subway or the Eglinton line, might opt for slower but more frequient McCowan LRT.

Now, although such solutions might be reasonably popular with the locals (if proposed), they require out-of-the-box thinking on the part of the Mayor's office and the TTC brass. Given that they didn't look at anything like that back in 2013 or 2015, I'm not very optimistic they will do so in 2018.
 
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Rainforest said:
On the other hand, if Union-bound RER trains can be sent directly to Scarborough Centre, then the resulting network may be appealing enough to make the subway extension unnecessary.
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This and your following post may have details that need to be hashed out, but the concept is one that I share.

Plus, at the end of the day, do people really prefer sitting on a subway, station after station, to get downtown when they could get there in half the time or less with a sense of meaningful motion and immediacy left for the last part of their commute, possibly even a brisk but enjoyable walk to the office or other endeavour?

Toronto seems to excel in building yesterday's solutions for tomorrow. To take your proposal even further, other nations are putting far more trains on fewer tracks at far closer intervals than Toronto or Ontario seem to realize is possible. It means investing in state of the art signalling and control technology, but is far easier to do than keep building parallel tracks unnecessarily. Or the inverse, saying 'it can't be done' because of only one or two tracks being available.

How odd that QP and Metrolinx want to 'be at the forefront of technological innovation' with Hydrail...but ignore all the rest.
Rainforest said:
they require out-of-the-box thinking on the part of the Mayor's office and the TTC brass.
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And Metrolinx and QP. I'd be more forgiving on their pedantic predisposition save for their ramming Hydrail down our throats. (And I'm a technologist, hardly a Luddite)

As much as Montreal's REM has some unsavoury political plonk, the technology is world class. This can be done, even in Canada!

Just not here...
 
I don't think a "shuttle" would work as Scar would still say we want a thru, non-transfer route to downtown so politically it's a no-go. They also wouldn't tolerate an LRT as they want "subways, subways, subways". The good thing is that ST IS a subway. I think running it every 8 minutes throughout the day to STC and RER to Unionville every 15 would bring good service and be much faster and direct service to downtown.. This would mean trains rolling by Kennedy about every 6 minutes and Scar South about every 4-5 minutes so they would act be effective DRL for everyone coming in from Scar, many from East York/Toronto at Danforth station, as well as those coming from buses along the Don Mills corridor when Gerrard station gets built.

A full rail corridor can easily handle a train every 4-5 minutes and Union certainly can. Remember these will not be mega-GO bi-level commuter trains but probably single-level EMUs which have faster de/acceleration and especially important are FAR easy to exit/board than the monster GO commuters currently used.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I don't think a "shuttle" would work as Scar would still say we want a thru, non-transfer route to downtown so politically it's a no-go.
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I never said just the "shuttle". Indeed, that wouldn't be accepted.

My proposal was about having both the through service to Union (at least 4 trains per hour, 15 min headways), and a shuttle to Kennedy that fills the gaps in between.

ssiguy2 said:
The good thing is that ST IS a subway. I think running it every 8 minutes throughout the day to STC and RER to Unionville every 15 would bring good service and be much faster and direct service to downtown.. This would mean trains rolling by Kennedy about every 6 minutes and Scar South about every 4-5 minutes so they would act be effective DRL for everyone coming in from Scar, many from East York/Toronto at Danforth station, as well as those coming from buses along the Don Mills corridor when Gerrard station gets built.

A full rail corridor can easily handle a train every 4-5 minutes and Union certainly can. Remember these will not be mega-GO bi-level commuter trains but probably single-level EMUs which have faster de/acceleration and especially important are FAR easy to exit/board than the monster GO commuters currently used.
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That all would be great, I just don't see them doing enough improvements to the Union corridor and the Lakeshore East line at this time.
 
steveintoronto said:
And Metrolinx and QP. I'd be more forgiving on their pedantic predisposition save for their ramming Hydrail down our throats. (And I'm a technologist, hardly a Luddite)
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Yeah, hydrail is a problem.

Not that the technology itself is without merit. But, it looks like we are striving to misuse it.

Countries with advanced rail transit want to use hydrail on secondary lines, where the service is infrequent and installing catenary may not be worth it. We, on the other hand, would like to avoid electifying our most used lines.
 
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