allengeorge
Senior Member
I hope this is greenlit.
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
generalcanada
Senior Member
so quickly mapping it out were looking at around 11km of tunnels assuming were tunneling the entire way
1 billion per km remember?
above ground construction drops it to at least 500mil per km. assuming we do that past vic park
If we do above ground we still could see the cost be at the very least 9 billion. 4km tunnel at downsview. 2km tunnel from don mills to vic park. 5.5 km of above ground to line 2
thats not including any rolling stock refreshes or maintenance contracts
who knows what the bidders would say their asking price is. could be as high at 13 billion since were looking at mid 2030s opening probably closer to late 2030's
i dunno, is that really worth it for tunneling ?
if it was me, we should be just doing above ground transit the whole way. look at all those single family homes especially west of yonge
if we do that we could bring the cost down to around 6 billion. which is definitely tolerable
1 billion per km remember?
above ground construction drops it to at least 500mil per km. assuming we do that past vic park
If we do above ground we still could see the cost be at the very least 9 billion. 4km tunnel at downsview. 2km tunnel from don mills to vic park. 5.5 km of above ground to line 2
thats not including any rolling stock refreshes or maintenance contracts
who knows what the bidders would say their asking price is. could be as high at 13 billion since were looking at mid 2030s opening probably closer to late 2030's
i dunno, is that really worth it for tunneling ?
if it was me, we should be just doing above ground transit the whole way. look at all those single family homes especially west of yonge
if we do that we could bring the cost down to around 6 billion. which is definitely tolerable
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Of note is that the project name changed from “Sheppard Rapid Transit Extension“ to “Sheppard Extension”.The page is back up. Date and location of one of the community consultations was changed.
Sheppard Extension
Seeking community input to extend rapid transit along Sheppard Avenue both east and west.www.metrolinx.com
nfitz
Superstar
I guess that opens it up to being a bus lane painted on the road.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
What to build here is a complex question. Ridership potential is really only in the LRT range for most of the route but a full subway was already built part way. A different and more nimble technology is being extended north from Don Mills and Eglinton. How will the two new lines interface? Where will the depot for Sheppard be? There are several solutions possible, and will Metrolinx be open about the fact they are thinking about them, or will we be told as usual that their final decision is the only conceivable possibility?
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Thankfully the glorious leader of our governing party favours subways. I am very sure the plot is already written in favour of subways.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
How I would like to see the Sheppard Line get built:
Red = tunnelled
Yellow = elevated
Orange = at-grade (though grade separated)
Basically the eastern line would tunnel under the 404, then jump out into an elevated line along sheppard to Agincourt, where it would turn south along the Stouffville Rail Corridor. A station at the Tridel development off Kennedy would feature a ~500m walking connection to the Stouffville GO line. at-grade along the Stouffville corridor, before connecting to the old SRT corridor through STC with stops at Brimley and McCowan. East of Scarborough Town Centre, it would run at grade through the ravine area towards Centennial College, where it would have an elevated station before dropping down to an extended at-grade section along the south side of the 401 over to UTSC.
West of Yonge, the line would run tunnelled to the Don Valley Ravine (most of this tunnel already exists!) before popping up to an elevated section. It would stay elevated until west of Bathurst to ensure the Bathurst stop can be elevated (saving $$$) before dipping underground again to Sheppard West station. Ideally this section could be elevated as well, I just don't think there is realistically space in the right of way to reasonably do so.
This design would involve minimal tunnelling, with only small tunnels under the 404 and approaching Sheppard West really required. Ideally it could be minimized even more by removing the Sheppard West tunnel. An extension to UTSC would also be huge for mobility in far eastern Scarborough and could be done relatively inexpensively through an at grade alignment using largely excess space along the 401.
Implementation would likely require the existing line to be converted to a more conventional rolling stock like the Ontario Line to keep costs down on the extension portions, as well.
Red = tunnelled
Yellow = elevated
Orange = at-grade (though grade separated)
Basically the eastern line would tunnel under the 404, then jump out into an elevated line along sheppard to Agincourt, where it would turn south along the Stouffville Rail Corridor. A station at the Tridel development off Kennedy would feature a ~500m walking connection to the Stouffville GO line. at-grade along the Stouffville corridor, before connecting to the old SRT corridor through STC with stops at Brimley and McCowan. East of Scarborough Town Centre, it would run at grade through the ravine area towards Centennial College, where it would have an elevated station before dropping down to an extended at-grade section along the south side of the 401 over to UTSC.
West of Yonge, the line would run tunnelled to the Don Valley Ravine (most of this tunnel already exists!) before popping up to an elevated section. It would stay elevated until west of Bathurst to ensure the Bathurst stop can be elevated (saving $$$) before dipping underground again to Sheppard West station. Ideally this section could be elevated as well, I just don't think there is realistically space in the right of way to reasonably do so.
This design would involve minimal tunnelling, with only small tunnels under the 404 and approaching Sheppard West really required. Ideally it could be minimized even more by removing the Sheppard West tunnel. An extension to UTSC would also be huge for mobility in far eastern Scarborough and could be done relatively inexpensively through an at grade alignment using largely excess space along the 401.
Implementation would likely require the existing line to be converted to a more conventional rolling stock like the Ontario Line to keep costs down on the extension portions, as well.
Northern Light
Superstar
You have a couple of definitive problems.
There is zero chance you can reach grade that quickly east of the 404 based on the known tunnel depth for passing under the 404, your earliest change to reach grade is the east side of Consumers Road.
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There is zero chance of running at-grade in the Stouffville corridor.
You're going to need to go to 4 tracks wide; you're going to have to pass through a park, over a creek, operate within a regulatory floodplain then pass under the CP mainline.
Nope. The alternative of going elevated also does not work because you can't make grade clearance over the CP line from the tunnel depth in the requisite space.
So you'll have to tunnel under Stouffville, and the creek and surface in your new E-W alignment.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Yea - it's a rough map. East of the 404 it may take a bit longer to come to grade - if it's not till Consumers, that's fine. Sheppard has an absolutely massive ROW through there so putting the tunnel portal in the middle of the road wouldn't be an issue. I do think it's probably possible west of Consumers however. Consumers is roughly a kilometre from the current subway terminus, that should be enough time to climb out even at a 3% grade, especially considering the line would likely be converted to OL rolling stock which allows for steeper climbs.
Regarding the jog along the Stouffville line - It wouldn't be without some expropriation. The properties through there are mostly low-value, aging industrial buildings which wouldn't be prohibitively expensive to expropriate to make space. Getting under the 401 would probably need a Kitchener corridor style tunnel under the 401, though, yes. Also - 4 tracks operate further south with the SRT running through the corridor - I don't see why it can't be accomodated here.
A "Zoom in" of how it could maybe work.
Yellow = Elevated
Orange = At Grade
Red = Stations
blue = expropriated properties
Obviously this is all very rough and would need a lot more analysis..
Regarding the jog along the Stouffville line - It wouldn't be without some expropriation. The properties through there are mostly low-value, aging industrial buildings which wouldn't be prohibitively expensive to expropriate to make space. Getting under the 401 would probably need a Kitchener corridor style tunnel under the 401, though, yes. Also - 4 tracks operate further south with the SRT running through the corridor - I don't see why it can't be accomodated here.
A "Zoom in" of how it could maybe work.
Yellow = Elevated
Orange = At Grade
Red = Stations
blue = expropriated properties
Obviously this is all very rough and would need a lot more analysis..
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Northern Light
Superstar
Where did you get this idea?
The OL stock is shorter than typical subway trains, and runs on a slightly narrower gauge.
There is no intent to convert the gauge of Sheppard; and the intent is to run full-length subway trains (six car); they will be subject to normal TTC gradiant rules.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Again - the review identifies all technology types and in my view conversion would allow the ability to elevate the line a lot easier vs. sticking w/ the existing rolling stock. If it's not necessary, great - just an idea.
T3G
Senior Member
All TTC rolling stock up should be capable of scaling a 3% grade by itself.
Have Metrolinx released any technical specifications for the Ontario Line stock that indicate their weight? The only possible benefit I can think of to converting to OL type trains is that if the stock is notably lighter, they would put less strain on any possible elevated structure. But does that cancel out the cost of converting the extant stubway to this tech?
reinventingthewheel
Active Member
In 2022, Toronto published a transit design guide for elevated stations. The guide (linked here) has 15+ pictures of SkyTrain stations. I hope this means we’ll see similar elevated light metro one day, whether or not the Sheppard extension is the right opportunity for it – I can’t say (I discount Eglinton West because it’s a short section, it will be slow, and public engagement for station design has been uninspired).
I think all we know is rolling stock will be designed by Hitachi. Could indicate something, do what you will with that info.
generalcanada
Senior Member
Im pretty sure the OL is Off-The-Shelf Hitachi driverless metro trains.
an example looks to be about 115 tons with 4 car trainsets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taipei_Metro_Circular_Line_EMU
Toronto Rockets apperently are 200+tons with 6 car trainsets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Rocket
IMO it all depends on the ridership, I highly doubt the theoretical line has enough ridership to justify the heavy rail.
though, it looks like the existing line 4 was built with "broad gauge"
as we have seen with the streetcars, That might cause some complications
robmausser
Senior Member
Id like to see the Scarborough Subway extended to MalvernTC along with this.