Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[kamira51]

How big of a failure is 407 station? Yeah, it sits in the middle of a park so you're not getting any buildings nearby.

13,956 daily riders in 2019. It's going to be getting it's ridership from the regional bus service and park&ride. Some regional bus lines also use it as a terminal station.

And I doubt the funding for the station came from Toronto?

407 station is very beneficial for myself since I can hop off the 407, park my car and ride the subway downtown.

 

[EnviroTO]

The one benefit that tunnelling will always have is direct routing, lower property acquisition costs, and happier neighbours. In some respects I wonder why we bother having subways follow the street grid when you consider that if they went diagonal to the street grid they would totally beat out surface transport by a wide margin.

 

[Northern Light]

The one benefit that tunnelling will always have is direct routing, lower property acquisition costs, and happier neighbours. In some respects I wonder why we bother having subways follow the street grid when you consider that if they went diagonal to the street grid they would totally beat out surface transport by a wide margin.

The Spadina Line portion of Line 1 does not follow the grid, except for the portion that follows Allen Road.

Line 2 east of Victoria Park does not follow the grid either.

Some portions of the Ontario Line will also not be grid-bound, with diagonal jaunts to the south-west (Queen to Exhibition Station), a south-east Jaunt from Queen to the USRC, and then the diagonal cut to Pape.

But I take your point.

I think some services should follow the grid in order to create straight-forward, predictable trips across the City.

But equally it makes sense to look at origin-destination pairs, some of which will not line up with a grid.

We could do a better job assessing where unconventional routing would serve more people better.

 

[afransen]

Conversion to LRT seems like a non-starter.

I agree that interlining, particularly through core sections, seems like bad idea, especially while we exist in a world of open platforms that are one looney tune short of shutting down the whole system. If we had PSDs and the ability to bypass stations with security incidents, maybe. But then any security incident on a train that leads to that train stopping shuts down the whole system.

 

[Rainforest]

Conversion to LRT seems like a non-starter.

I agree that interlining, particularly through core sections, seems like bad idea, especially while we exist in a world of open platforms that are one looney tune short of shutting down the whole system. If we had PSDs and the ability to bypass stations with security incidents, maybe. But then any security incident on a train that leads to that train stopping shuts down the whole system.

I can see the case against resuming the BD - University interlining.

But branches outside the core should be fine. For example, Sheppard as a branch of Spadina line. Many systems outside Toronto operate like that.

If either the Sheppard or the Vaughan branch gets blocked, then the trains serving that branch can just short-turn near the last common station.

 

[Rainforest]

Personally, I see three viable options for rapid transit along Sheppard:

Option 1: Heavy Rail

• Westward extension to the Spadina Line. My preference would be to have it interlined heading southbound, with the first common station being Wilson. The Spadina Line already short-turns some trains at Sheppard West anyway, so that would set up a nice 'one train to Vaughan, one train to Sheppard' pattern.
• Eastward extension to Sheppard & McCowan. Should be elevated along Sheppard East, but that's unlikely for heavy rail. Most if not all will need to be tunnelled, which is big money.
• Links up well with my idea to de-couple the Yonge and Spadina subways, and build an extension of the Spadina Subway south of Bloor, replacing the streetcar.
  • It would turn eastward at Wellington and terminate Wellington & Bay, with a direct connection into the Union Station complex.
  • Would allow for re-activation of the Bloor-University wye, enabling western Bloor and eastern Danforth trains to head directly downtown, significantly reducing pressure at Bloor-Yonge and St. George.
  • Would also result in two completely operationally-independent subways heading into Downtown (3 if you include the Ontario Line)

Option 2: Metro

• Conversion of Sheppard Subway to run Ontario Line technology
• Westward extension of line to Downsview Park (intermodal hub)
• Eastward extension to Malvern via Sheppard and old SLRT alignment. Can be mostly elevated along Sheppard East.
• Extension of Ontario Line up to Sheppard & Victoria Park
• Wye at Sheppard & Victoria Park. One Ontario Line branch heads west to Downsview Park, one heads east to Malvern. One route runs straight across Sheppard.

Option 3: LRT

• Conversion of Sheppard Subway to run low-floor LRVs
• Westward extension (partial tunnel, partial elevated, partial at-grade) westward to Sheppard West, then up Dufferin to Finch, then westward on Finch to connect to FWLRT.
• Eastward extension to either Morningside, Malvern, or Toronto Zoo via SELRT alignment
• Creates in effect an "Uptown Crosstown", similar to Eglinton through Midtown

Which one of these options is preferable? It all depends on the costs of converting the existing Sheppard Subway for different modes (I would venture that Metro would be less expensive because it would be less likely to require adjusting platform heights), and how much of each option needs to be tunnelled vs elevated vs at-grade.

Option 2 is preferable, as the future new sections can be added for less. A smaller footprint and the ability to handle steeper grades and sharper turns will result in better routing options.

But Metrolinx will probably select option 1, build from Sheppard West to McCowan, and won't care about making any future extensions easier or cheaper.

 

[Railrunner]

Personally, I see three viable options for rapid transit along Sheppard:

Option 1: Heavy Rail

• Westward extension to the Spadina Line. My preference would be to have it interlined heading southbound, with the first common station being Wilson. The Spadina Line already short-turns some trains at Sheppard West anyway, so that would set up a nice 'one train to Vaughan, one train to Sheppard' pattern.
• Eastward extension to Sheppard & McCowan. Should be elevated along Sheppard East, but that's unlikely for heavy rail. Most if not all will need to be tunnelled, which is big money.
• Links up well with my idea to de-couple the Yonge and Spadina subways, and build an extension of the Spadina Subway south of Bloor, replacing the streetcar.
  • It would turn eastward at Wellington and terminate Wellington & Bay, with a direct connection into the Union Station complex.
  • Would allow for re-activation of the Bloor-University wye, enabling western Bloor and eastern Danforth trains to head directly downtown, significantly reducing pressure at Bloor-Yonge and St. George.
  • Would also result in two completely operationally-independent subways heading into Downtown (3 if you include the Ontario Line)

Option 2: Metro

• Conversion of Sheppard Subway to run Ontario Line technology
• Westward extension of line to Downsview Park (intermodal hub)
• Eastward extension to Malvern via Sheppard and old SLRT alignment. Can be mostly elevated along Sheppard East.
• Extension of Ontario Line up to Sheppard & Victoria Park
• Wye at Sheppard & Victoria Park. One Ontario Line branch heads west to Downsview Park, one heads east to Malvern. One route runs straight across Sheppard.

Option 3: LRT

• Conversion of Sheppard Subway to run low-floor LRVs
• Westward extension (partial tunnel, partial elevated, partial at-grade) westward to Sheppard West, then up Dufferin to Finch, then westward on Finch to connect to FWLRT.
• Eastward extension to either Morningside, Malvern, or Toronto Zoo via SELRT alignment
• Creates in effect an "Uptown Crosstown", similar to Eglinton through Midtown

Which one of these options is preferable? It all depends on the costs of converting the existing Sheppard Subway for different modes (I would venture that Metro would be less expensive because it would be less likely to require adjusting platform heights), and how much of each option needs to be tunnelled vs elevated vs at-grade.

If it's an LRT I will eat my shoe.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

If we go down the interlining path, I'm a lot less interested in the wye than through running at Sheppard / McCowan so Sheppard trains can terminate at STC and BD at Agincourt and letting Sheppard trains through run up to York U and Vaughan (frankly I'm fine with this one being imperfect, with a conventional interchange at Sheppard West and the resulting two northbound platforms).

My current thinking is that the SRT ROW, Centennial, UTSC and Pickering would be better served by pulling the eastern leg of a 407 line south than converting the Sheppard line to a lighter technology (and yes, in the short to medium term I'm honestly fine with the City vision of a Sheppard East LRT tightly integrated with Eglinton East).

 

[Cobra]

Anything besides subway is dumb and ridiculous. You get to connect the line to Wilson Yard while you're at it. The extra cost of converting the existing parts to something else is pure waste of money and being realistic for a minutes - have people forgot who's in power?

Line 4 will be subway from McCowan to Downsview Park

 

[MrGoose]

Personally, I see three viable options for rapid transit along Sheppard:

Option 1: Heavy Rail

• Westward extension to the Spadina Line. My preference would be to have it interlined heading southbound, with the first common station being Wilson. The Spadina Line already short-turns some trains at Sheppard West anyway, so that would set up a nice 'one train to Vaughan, one train to Sheppard' pattern.
• Eastward extension to Sheppard & McCowan. Should be elevated along Sheppard East, but that's unlikely for heavy rail. Most if not all will need to be tunnelled, which is big money.
• Links up well with my idea to de-couple the Yonge and Spadina subways, and build an extension of the Spadina Subway south of Bloor, replacing the streetcar.
  • It would turn eastward at Wellington and terminate Wellington & Bay, with a direct connection into the Union Station complex.
  • Would allow for re-activation of the Bloor-University wye, enabling western Bloor and eastern Danforth trains to head directly downtown, significantly reducing pressure at Bloor-Yonge and St. George.
  • Would also result in two completely operationally-independent subways heading into Downtown (3 if you include the Ontario Line)

Option 2: Metro

• Conversion of Sheppard Subway to run Ontario Line technology
• Westward extension of line to Downsview Park (intermodal hub)
• Eastward extension to Malvern via Sheppard and old SLRT alignment. Can be mostly elevated along Sheppard East.
• Extension of Ontario Line up to Sheppard & Victoria Park
• Wye at Sheppard & Victoria Park. One Ontario Line branch heads west to Downsview Park, one heads east to Malvern. One route runs straight across Sheppard.

Option 3: LRT

• Conversion of Sheppard Subway to run low-floor LRVs
• Westward extension (partial tunnel, partial elevated, partial at-grade) westward to Sheppard West, then up Dufferin to Finch, then westward on Finch to connect to FWLRT.
• Eastward extension to either Morningside, Malvern, or Toronto Zoo via SELRT alignment
• Creates in effect an "Uptown Crosstown", similar to Eglinton through Midtown

Which one of these options is preferable? It all depends on the costs of converting the existing Sheppard Subway for different modes (I would venture that Metro would be less expensive because it would be less likely to require adjusting platform heights), and how much of each option needs to be tunnelled vs elevated vs at-grade.

These are not the 3 viable options for rapid transit along Sheppard, interlining is not necessary or even desirable.

In Option 1, there is no need to interline the Sheppard line with the Spadina line. You can run Sheppard to Downsview Park and further to the Bolton Line at a minimum. This would be a true Northern Crosstown, because it'd be so much faster with the wider station spacing and grade separation. You can even elevate it after Sheppard West using some of the space there or use the bridge over the Earl Bales to transition from underground to elevated.

And an elevated line along Sheppard is doable even with the existing rolling stock and could reach Malvern Town Center travelling the south side of the CP ROW, you could transition from underground to elevated between Pharmacy and Warden

I personally don't think that there is any need for an LRT along Sheppard East, if we commit to elevated a metro line down the median of Sheppard. The additional expense of building an elevated guideway is worth the benefits of grade separation and increased travel speed.

This would be a true crosstown North. No need for changing platform heights, linear transfers, changing technologies etc. It would connect with 4 GO lines, 4 Metro Lines, with potential cheap westward extensions over the Humber.

Light purple being elevated, dark purple is underground

 

[jmi22]

How big of a failure is 407 station? Yeah, it sits in the middle of a park so you're not getting any buildings nearby.

13,956 daily riders in 2019. It's going to be getting it's ridership from the regional bus service and park&ride. Some regional bus lines also use it as a terminal station.

And I doubt the funding for the station came from Toronto?

Notice how that's literally not what I was talking about? 407 station is good and a necessary midblock stop on the way to VMC. However we could have built it, and most of the York extension elevated, saving billions of dollars. Don't obfuscate my point with the notion i'm somehow opposing transit expansion. And regardless of which tier of government funded the project (which surprise, all just comes from our taxes), this was a Toronto Transit Commision planned project and a poorly planned one at that.

 

[GenerationW]

Anything besides subway is dumb and ridiculous. You get to connect the line to Wilson Yard while you're at it. The extra cost of converting the existing parts to something else is pure waste of money and being realistic for a minutes - have people forgot who's in power?

Line 4 will be subway from McCowan to Downsview Park

I think it would be subway even if the Liberals or NDP proposed it. Shutting down a useful rapid transit line for 5+ years is a political non-starter. This isn't the crumbling SRT.

What's being overlooked is that they're considering extending this east of McCowan.

 

[BB ON]

Rather than interlining with Line 1 in the west, my idea would be to cut straight across (or dip south) into the Downsview park lands, then proceed west along Sheppard. This puts service into the airport lands redevelopment.

If they build the line-to-line connections the same as they did at Yonge (east/west to south) then it would be possible to run trippers down Line 1; you could have peak direction service that could use a single reversible tunnel that avoids having to build a complicated junction for full interlining.

If the Yonge crossover was a bit further south, you could potentially run a loop along Sheppard. Alas.

 

[picard102]

These are not the 3 viable options for rapid transit along Sheppard, interlining is not necessary or even desirable.

In Option 1, there is no need to interline the Sheppard line with the Spadina line. You can run Sheppard to Downsview Park and further to the Bolton Line at a minimum. This would be a true Northern Crosstown, because it'd be so much faster with the wider station spacing and grade separation. You can even elevate it after Sheppard West using some of the space there or use the bridge over the Earl Bales to transition from underground to elevated.

And an elevated line along Sheppard is doable even with the existing rolling stock and could reach Malvern Town Center travelling the south side of the CP ROW, you could transition from underground to elevated between Pharmacy and Warden

I personally don't think that there is any need for an LRT along Sheppard East, if we commit to elevated a metro line down the median of Sheppard. The additional expense of building an elevated guideway is worth the benefits of grade separation and increased travel speed.

This would be a true crosstown North. No need for changing platform heights, linear transfers, changing technologies etc. It would connect with 4 GO lines, 4 Metro Lines, with potential cheap westward extensions over the Humber.

Light purple being elevated, dark purple is underground

Where along Sheppard are you running an elevated subway between Earl Bales and Sheppard West? Directly over Sheppard?

 

[Aplus23]

Bring it east to Mcowan n Sheppard and then have the EELRT continue on the rest 9fbthe way on Sheppard as the EELRT proposes.