Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[nfitz]

Id like to see the Scarborough Subway extended to MalvernTC along with this.

I'd think that Finch and McCowan would be a more attractive node for Line 2.

However, there's very little at Sheppard and Nielsen. If one is underground (that doesn't seem necessary), deflecting it up to Malvern Town Centre between Sheppard/Markham Rd and Sheppard/Morningside looks quite doable - and might even help the business case.

 

[Rainforest]

If any subway line goes to Malvern TC at all, the cheapest option is at-grade on the south side of the CP rail corridor.

Because of that, Line 2 might be a better choice. The north end of the Sheppard / McCowan station will be just 300 m from the CP corridor, thus that would be just a short tunnel extension and then 2 km at-grade.

It would be harder to route Line 4 that way. Either it veers north of Sheppard before reaching McCowan, and then it will be a 300 m walk between the Line 4 and Line 2 stations. Or Line 4 hits the Sheppard / McCowan intersection and then the transfer with Line 2 is convenient, but Line 4 points east and can't swing to the CP corridor easily.

 

[afransen]

Where did you get this idea?

The OL stock is shorter than typical subway trains, and runs on a slightly narrower gauge.

There is no intent to convert the gauge of Sheppard; and the intent is to run full-length subway trains (six car); they will be subject to normal TTC gradiant rules.

One could get light metro vehicles built to TTC gauge, using 600v third rail power and fit through the legacy TTC subway loading gauge so could pass along the existing tunnel. The trickiest thing would be making the platforms accommodate Line 1 trains, but gap fillers could be used for Line 4, I'd think.

I guess I should say I don't expect that much outside the box thinking, but this should be possible.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Not any new info, but MTO pushed out the link to the website. Note the subway graphic.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1717254772921602154

 

[cplchanb]

Not any new info, but MTO pushed out the link to the website. Note the subway graphic.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1717254772921602154

As we learn from the go Expansion propaganda Don't take stock graphics at face value. We were all duped into thinking that metrolinx was getting EMUs

 

[cplchanb]

Extension to shepherd West is an absolute no-brainer. The station itself was designed to take the extension to begin with If I recall correctly as part of network 2011. Not to Mention it's a straight shot West along Shepherd. This will close the loop between the big U on line oneFirst envisaged Over 50 years ago

 

[T3G]

As we learn from the go Expansion propaganda Don't take stock graphics at face value. We were all duped into thinking that metrolinx was getting EMUs

Who's "we"?

It should have been patently obvious that the BiLevels weren't going anywhere to anyone who's spent at least 30 seconds looking at the build and refurbishment dates for the BiLevel fleet on the CPTDB wiki.

 

[cplchanb]

Who's "we"?

It should have been patently obvious that the BiLevels weren't going anywhere to anyone who's spent at least 30 seconds looking at the build and refurbishment dates for the BiLevel fleet on the CPTDB wiki.

just look back at that thread... you can see countless pages of posters trying to hyperanalyze that the picture means we were getting Stadler KISSes. it was fueled by ML reports of them exploring EMU options as well.

 

[generalcanada]

just look back at that thread... you can see countless pages of posters trying to hyperanalyze that the picture means we were getting Stadler KISSes. it was fueled by ML reports of them exploring EMU options as well.

Actually its a bit of 1 half of another.

metrolinx was proposing EMU's and we might have gotten some stadler KISS's but as a whole the large majority of the bilevels were never going away, with diesel service staying for RH and KW and parts of the LW line.

It just so happens that the bidder said naw you dont need the EMU's to provide the level of service you want

 

[Metroscapes]

Is there a reason why Line 4 extension proposals don't have the line veering north slightly to intersect with Agincourt GO to allow for an easy transfer there? I guess cost prohibitive?

It is, but it’s far-ish from the major intersection, and the platforms are mostly north of Sheppard Avenue. But maybe they can shift the footprint of the station at Kennedy Road so it’s closer to the GO Station.

It would likely be easier and cheaper to move the GO platform.

It's worth noting that the Sheppard overpass roughed in space for the LRT beside the centre pier, and the track bends at Sheppard (the platform is at the edge of the bend).

 

[jmi22]

Thankfully the glorious leader of our governing party favours subways. I am very sure the plot is already written in favour of subways.

I think this approach is outdated and a bit too partisan. After all who has planned and began construction on the first major chunk of elevated rail in Toronto since the RT opened in 1985 and the Bloor West extensions in the 1960s? The TTC and Toronto City Council had absolutely abandoned at grade/elevated, going so far as to plan to tunnel under the CP rail corridor for the Sherway construction.

I know it hurts a lot of people to acknowledge, but maybe the Councillors and TTC Staff that tunneled a rapid transit line to an empty field next to an expressway are not good transit planners? Maybe I'm crazy who's to say

 

[T3G]

just look back at that thread... you can see countless pages of posters trying to hyperanalyze that the picture means we were getting Stadler KISSes. it was fueled by ML reports of them exploring EMU options as well.

It is not out of the question that EMUs can one day appear for future service expansion, or to replace life expired BiLevels.

But why would you assume that that was going to be what was happening now? To blame Metrolinx for spreading propaganda is one thing, but anyone who actually knows anything at all about the GO train would have seen right through it.

 

[chrisw]

I know it hurts a lot of people to acknowledge, but maybe the Councillors and TTC Staff that tunneled a rapid transit line to an empty field next to an expressway are not good transit planners? Maybe I'm crazy who's to say

How big of a failure is 407 station? Yeah, it sits in the middle of a park so you're not getting any buildings nearby.

13,956 daily riders in 2019. It's going to be getting it's ridership from the regional bus service and park&ride. Some regional bus lines also use it as a terminal station.

And I doubt the funding for the station came from Toronto?

 

[gweed123]

Personally, I see three viable options for rapid transit along Sheppard:

Option 1: Heavy Rail

• Westward extension to the Spadina Line. My preference would be to have it interlined heading southbound, with the first common station being Wilson. The Spadina Line already short-turns some trains at Sheppard West anyway, so that would set up a nice 'one train to Vaughan, one train to Sheppard' pattern.
• Eastward extension to Sheppard & McCowan. Should be elevated along Sheppard East, but that's unlikely for heavy rail. Most if not all will need to be tunnelled, which is big money.
• Links up well with my idea to de-couple the Yonge and Spadina subways, and build an extension of the Spadina Subway south of Bloor, replacing the streetcar.
  • It would turn eastward at Wellington and terminate Wellington & Bay, with a direct connection into the Union Station complex.
  • Would allow for re-activation of the Bloor-University wye, enabling western Bloor and eastern Danforth trains to head directly downtown, significantly reducing pressure at Bloor-Yonge and St. George.
  • Would also result in two completely operationally-independent subways heading into Downtown (3 if you include the Ontario Line)

Option 2: Metro

• Conversion of Sheppard Subway to run Ontario Line technology
• Westward extension of line to Downsview Park (intermodal hub)
• Eastward extension to Malvern via Sheppard and old SLRT alignment. Can be mostly elevated along Sheppard East.
• Extension of Ontario Line up to Sheppard & Victoria Park
• Wye at Sheppard & Victoria Park. One Ontario Line branch heads west to Downsview Park, one heads east to Malvern. One route runs straight across Sheppard.

Option 3: LRT

• Conversion of Sheppard Subway to run low-floor LRVs
• Westward extension (partial tunnel, partial elevated, partial at-grade) westward to Sheppard West, then up Dufferin to Finch, then westward on Finch to connect to FWLRT.
• Eastward extension to either Morningside, Malvern, or Toronto Zoo via SELRT alignment
• Creates in effect an "Uptown Crosstown", similar to Eglinton through Midtown

Which one of these options is preferable? It all depends on the costs of converting the existing Sheppard Subway for different modes (I would venture that Metro would be less expensive because it would be less likely to require adjusting platform heights), and how much of each option needs to be tunnelled vs elevated vs at-grade.

 

[T3G]

Personally, I can barely see any argument for a Sheppard subway at all, but if there must be one, option 1, but sans interlining, seems to me to be the only logical option, seeing as they've already made the extant portion of the line into a traditional subway. Keeping each line separate prevents delays from one line from cascading onto the other. That was why they discontinued the first interlining attempt to begin with.

I don't see anything about why "heavy" rail should preclude elevated lines - and this is why I'm not a fan of using the term "heavy rail" to refer to any kind of rapid transit service. New York runs cars much heavier than ours and they have tons of Els. And their trains themselves are light rail compared to the monstrous beasts that haul freight across the country.