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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

 
can anyone give a refresher on what technology is possible? what is the current line 4 capable of? of course it doesnt have atc at all so PSD's are incompatible. Do you have to buy heavy rail to be compatible with the current line?

I know we have 300 pages of "LRT vs SUBWAY" discussion. But Is retrofitting the current line 4 even possible?
 
To be compatible with the current line 4, any rolling stock needs only two things: to be of the same physical dimensions as the current stock, and to run on the same 600 V power system from a third rail.

Anything is possible if you throw enough money, and they can convert the line into any sort of technology or gadgetbahn they can possibly dream of, but the question becomes why.
 
I think we all need to recognize that the Line 4 extensions will be built as a TTC subway at least for the Western portion and Don Mills to Sheppard-McCowan. Any ambiguity from Metrolinx is simply them making it look like they’re doing their homework, meanwhile their political directive is to build a subway extension.

Now, if they propose elevating the eastern section, I would be very supportive. Far cheaper than tunnelling.
 
SaugeenJunction said:
Far cheaper than tunnelling.
Click to expand...
Every transit project in Toronto ends up blowing up it's budget. Why should we even concern ourselves anymore with what's cheaper? The Crosstown was suppose to be cheaper than building a subway along Eglinton. Can anyone still make that case today? Tunnel the line. When condos start getting built due to the subway extension, we'll be glad we did it. Spend the extra money and "future proof" the line.
I know tons of people who drive cars because they don't like standing outside, being exposed to the elements, waiting for transit. Tunnel the line and you'll get more people to ditch their cars. I promise you.
 
generalcanada said:
can anyone give a refresher on what technology is possible? what is the current line 4 capable of? of course it doesnt have atc at all so PSD's are incompatible. Do you have to buy heavy rail to be compatible with the current line?

I know we have 300 pages of "LRT vs SUBWAY" discussion. But Is retrofitting the current line 4 even possible?
Click to expand...
It would be a poor investment to extend Line 4 without adding ATC. Considering ATC should lower operating expense, and perhaps make stations less expensive to build, reduce the size of the fleet required to provide a given level of service, etc. it would seem to be pennywise and pound foolish not to update with ATC.
 
Bojaxs said:
Every transit project in Toronto ends up blowing up it's budget. Why should we even concern ourselves anymore with what's cheaper? The Crosstown was suppose to be cheaper than building a subway along Eglinton. Can anyone still make that case today? Tunnel the line. When condos start getting built due to the subway extension, we'll be glad we did it. Spend the extra money and "future proof" the line.
I know tons of people who drive cars because they don't like standing outside, being exposed to the elements, waiting for transit. Tunnel the line and you'll get more people to ditch their cars. I promise you.
Click to expand...

You can have elevated transit that is grade separated from traffic. And also have stations that are enclosed, covered, climate controlled, and sheltered from the elements. And you may be able to have more stations.
 
chrisw said:
You can have elevated transit that is grade separated from traffic. And also have stations that are enclosed, covered, climate controlled, and sheltered from the elements. And you may be able to have more stations.
Click to expand...
Apologies, I misread the original post. For some reason I read at ground level. Elevated, yes. But where would you build the elevated portion? Over top Sheppard Ave.?
 
Bojaxs said:
Apologies, I misread the original post. For some reason I read at ground level. Elevated, yes. But where would you build the elevated portion? Over top Sheppard Ave.?
Click to expand...
Elevated down the centre of Sheppard Ave, just like parts of the Vancouver Skytrain or Montreal REM. Or more locally, the north portion of the Ontario Line or part of the Eglinton West LRT which are elevated too.

Sheppard is plenty wide to accommodate the scale of an elevated subway line. Maybe the western portion towards Sheppard West would need to be tunnelled.

Something like this:
1698121156792.jpeg
 
Bojaxs said:
Every transit project in Toronto ends up blowing up it's budget. Why should we even concern ourselves anymore with what's cheaper? The Crosstown was suppose to be cheaper than building a subway along Eglinton. Can anyone still make that case today? Tunnel the line. When condos start getting built due to the subway extension, we'll be glad we did it. Spend the extra money and "future proof" the line.
I know tons of people who drive cars because they don't like standing outside, being exposed to the elements, waiting for transit. Tunnel the line and you'll get more people to ditch their cars. I promise you.
Click to expand...
You are of course assuming that the cost overruns wouldn't have been equivalent if they had tunneled the line.

If you have a surface line budgeted for $1,5 bil and a tunneled line budgeted for $5 bil, and they both have cost overruns of, say, 50%, you still end up paying more for the latter line.

Without a time machine into an alternative timeline, I don't think anyone can authoritatively claim that building Eglinton as a full subway would have been cheaper.
 
SaugeenJunction said:
I think we all need to recognize that the Line 4 extensions will be built as a TTC subway at least for the Western portion and Don Mills to Sheppard-McCowan. Any ambiguity from Metrolinx is simply them making it look like they’re doing their homework, meanwhile their political directive is to build a subway extension.

Now, if they propose elevating the eastern section, I would be very supportive. Far cheaper than tunnelling.
Click to expand...

It must be underground under the 404 and cannot surface anywhere before Victoria Park.

I find it unlikely it will be elevated east of there; for a variety of reasons; but it is generally feasible. Given the design of Sheppard/McCowan station, any connection there is likely to be underground as well.

afransen said:
It would be a poor investment to extend Line 4 without adding ATC. Considering ATC should lower operating expense, and perhaps make stations less expensive to build, reduce the size of the fleet required to provide a given level of service, etc. it would seem to be pennywise and pound foolish not to update with ATC.
Click to expand...

The stations will all go to six car platforms, with platform edge doors, and ATC.
 
generalcanada said:
can anyone give a refresher on what technology is possible? what is the current line 4 capable of? of course it doesnt have atc at all so PSD's are incompatible.
Click to expand...
I thought it already switched to ATC, hence why they put TRs on it since 2016?
afransen said:
So all new rolling stock as well?
Click to expand...
If/when line 4 is extended, they would certainly need new rolling stock for fleet expansion, not to mention the current stock potentially reaching the end of life by the time the extensions are ready to open (probably no earlier than the 2040s, taking into account all potential delays).
 
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