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saveoursubways (SOS)

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LRTs, as seen in Europe, could definitely help especially if parkland or the towers themselves are turned into commercial spaces. High concentration of services with a tram line would turn them into Amsterdam-esque tram corridors.

From what I've seen in trams running in around higher density European cities, Hong Kong, and Melbourne, is it is possible to run respectable local service. Of course it's going to replicate a bus, but the capacity will be much higher. The bus at most could carry 50, while an LRT could carry over a 100 passengers.

Toronto is not and will never be Amstredam, Hong Kong or Melbourne. There is no bus congestion along Eglinton today (I presume that's the stretch you're talking about) between Kennedy and VP. Buses today can handle the load. And they have the advantage of providing high frequency.

As for capacity, buses can carry a lot more than 50 people. Artics and double deckers could substantially increase capacity. Deploying LRT on the other hand will reduce frequencies. We are trading frequency for capacity with LRT. We consider both as essential to improve transit. SOS is looking to have subways increase speed and capacity on these corridors while leaving buses to meet local needs. Capacity for local transit will also be freed up by shifting cross-town riders along these corridors to subways.

I think one of the biggest misconceptions put forward by proponents of Transit City is this idea that Transit City will turn Toronto into a European city. It won't. Zoning, density regulations, urban planning, etc. will make Toronto more European. And so far there is no move accompanying the tram lines to adjust all those other policies to make Toronto more "European". In reality, Eglinton will stay Eglinton and will simply swap buses for trams. That's useless for anybody who does not have a destination on Eglinton. Nobody's going to out of their way to take a LRT.

Steve Munro points that out as well:

We don't agree with Steve on Transit City. In this specific example though, Eglinton is not King. The demand is not even close. Nor will it ever be that close. There are no plans to densify to that level. Of course, we would not support trading buses for streetcars on King. But by that same token, it makes no sense to impose a downtown transit model (streetcars) on a suburb. Out in the burbs, frequency matters.

Crosstown trips seem rather unnecessary for that reason.

I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that we should not cater to cross-town trips or that citizens don't need to make them?
 
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^ I am suggesting that using a tram line under a crosstown system is pointless. Sinking the line and turning it into a subway would make a lot more sense. LRTs aren't used in such a manner within Europe or Hong Kong, well excerpt for Melbourne, Australia. However LRTs in that metro is slow and pretty pathetic for most part.

Running articulated or double-decker buses could provide similar service. I never thought of that and it'd probably be more cheaper as well. LRTs do have that additional appeal since its not diesel-run. If a subway was introduced into of an LRT and a high quality bus service was introduced, the area would see as many towers as Sheppard. It wouldn't have that Amsterdam/ Hong Kong feel (with LRTs), but density would be a lot more maximized.

As for densification, I always felt it would be significant considering you have numerous towers around that stretch. The 70 or so low/ medium-rise towers could be built around the empty sections of the Eglinton corridor. No need to have super talls, just similar towers with more substantial commercial zoning. The same goes for other stretches starting at McCowan to Markham which could be turned into larger markets than similar stretches in Amsterdam, which tend to consist of more lower rise buildings. This city is odd considering that most intersection, even in Scarborough, are riddled with 20-30 or so high rises. That's unusual in most cities in the world. You'd expect for that reason that Transit City could see zoning that's more intensive.
 
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Etobicoke Finch West LRT Ridership

TTC number: 2300-2800 ppd for finch West...

They are planing to build undergroung stations for the line and at 40M for these numbers, it's nothing that a BRT could not have handle...

I really don't get their thinking...

Surely the money saved by putting BRT there would go to subway...

That ridership number falls into TTC own category for BRT and barely makes it to LRT....
 
underground subways

Doesn't Boston run the Green Line in tunnels downtown? That's a streetcar line.
 
underground streetcars

Doesn't Boston run the Green Line in tunnels downtown? That's a streetcar line.
 
They are planing to build undergroung stations for the line and at 40M for these numbers, it's nothing that a BRT could not have handle...

The only underground stations will be at the current Finch subway station and the future Finch West subway station - and even Finch West may not be underground.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
TTC number: 2300-2800 ppd for finch West...

They are planing to build undergroung stations for the line and at 40M for these numbers, it's nothing that a BRT could not have handle...

I really don't get their thinking...

Surely the money saved by putting BRT there would go to subway...

That ridership number falls into TTC own category for BRT and barely makes it to LRT....

Note that by the TTC's own numbers, BRT requires bypass lanes at stops beyond 2000pphpd, and there is not enough room on finch avenue for bypass lanes. It is also more expensive to operate, and I would love to know how much subway you think you could build with the money saved with BRT.

And yes, I know there is a hydro corridor to the north, and no I do not think it is a suitable alternative location for local transit on finch.
 
Note that by the TTC's own numbers, BRT requires bypass lanes at stops beyond 2000pphpd, and there is not enough room on finch avenue for bypass lanes. It is also more expensive to operate, and I would love to know how much subway you think you could build with the money saved with BRT.

And yes, I know there is a hydro corridor to the north, and no I do not think it is a suitable alternative location for local transit on finch.

They should travel maore then...

Take a look at Pie-IX BRT in Montreal...
It's a middle ROW

I never said that I was against it,
I'm against how the TTC defines its priorities...
 
It is also more expensive to operate, and I would love to know how much subway you think you could build with the money saved with BRT.

And yes, I know there is a hydro corridor to the north, and no I do not think it is a suitable alternative location for local transit on finch.

FWLRT = $1.2 billion dollars in 2007. Since then...
- proposed Don Mills-Finch East extension
- proposed Woodbine Live/airport extension
- six added stops
- underground station at Keele
- possible elevated station at Humber College
Surely the total has gone up exponentially a result.

The lowball end figure alone could build at least 4-5 new kilometres of subways (and nowadays when every cent counts that's important). If the TTC was serious about alleviating Finch and other crosstown bus routes, they'd invest more in east-to-west subway expansion such as to minimize commuters dependency on buses. Replacing rubber tires with steel rail means nothing if they're all just feeders dumping loads onto overtaxed narrow-reaching metros (YUS in particular). Better to least make those rubber tires compatible to the subway instead of just inferior to it. BRT with emphasis on long-distance travel is precisely that and costs less than LRT which in turn frres up funding for metros.

The southern edge of the F.H.C. is within 300m of Finch proper (2 city blocks walking distance or under 4 mins for able-bodied pedestrians). Also the 36 bus would still exist only in reduced frequencies (due to lowered demand since most commuters from Rexdale and Jane-Finch would opt for F.H.C.). Win/win.The goal of the BRT is to create a more humane city, a city not for cars but for people. We dont need to be extravagant, we dont need another debt our children would carry. BRT only needs Political Will.

How are BRTs more expensive to operate than LRTs? The TTC is now wondering how it would continue operating its network. It’s losing a lot of money to think that its underpreforming routes are being subsidized by the provincial government. For it to be able to break even they will have to eventually charge $6 for every ticket. That’s like 200% fare increase. So, soon, the government will have to take over and spend billions for the upkeep of a system which only the ‘chosen few’ can enjoy (since the average Torontonian cannot sustain paying into the fare hike). LRT is not best for a city that can't pay its own maintenance costs because corridors like Finch West, esp. after the Finch-Keele Subway Stn, won’t have the necessary number of people riding it. It is not desirable to rely on national budget just to maintain its LRT scheme. There is no need for road widening, BRT if fully implemented would minimize private car use. So it can utilize the existing lanes. Ongoing passing lanes and road widening are not required.

As a matter of sense, LRT is more expensive to build. As a matter of fact, it is more costly and polluting to operate and slower than BRT. Why? Electricity is made from burning oil, coal or hydro-power. 1 time of changing the energy-form (from oil to electricity) will cause loss somehow. Then later, the electricity will be changed again to make kinetic energy to propel the LRT's cars which is also subject to some energy loss i.e. 2 times of loss. Meanwhile for the bus which burns oil directly, it will suffer from only 1 time of energy transformation. Slower than BRT? Because it doesn't have the exclusive ROW potential which the F.H.C. readily provides, plus more minor stops.

Trains can be longer than buses, packing more people in per pound of steel and per driver (although 3 car TC LRT trainsets will have less ridership capacity than 3-compartmented biartics utilized in European BRT systems). This avoids wasting money moving steel around. HOWEVER, all of this only applies if you have high volumes, of course. If you aren't running very many vehicles per day, the capital costs of the electric wires overwhelm the operating costs of the diesel engines; and of course there's no point running quarter-full trains when you could be running fully-full buses.
 
None of the proposed extensions are included at this point nor are they relevant to the budget; building everything with an emphasis on long-range travel isn't really a good idea and makes GO's purpose unclear; there is a difference between operating costs and capital costs that you seem to refuse to acknowledge; fares will not double in the immediate future; the TTC's operating budget shortfalls have nothing to do with vehicle choice and everything to do with recent service increases it being one of the least subsidized systems in the western world; I do not think you understand how electricity works; the electricity used to power LRTs will indeed come from non-renewable sources initially but that will change as the province pushes for more renewable (or at least 'clean') power plants; Rail bias is a real, documented thing, and less people will get out of their cars for a bus than they will a train, even if travel times are similar; the cost of ordering and maintaining an entirely separate fleet of articulated buses (or tri-articulated buses?) for one route would not be trivial; and, again, capital costs and operating costs are separate things.
 
FWLRT = $1.2 billion dollars in 2007. Since then...
- proposed Don Mills-Finch East extension
- proposed Woodbine Live/airport extension
- six added stops
- underground station at Keele
- possible elevated station at Humber College
Surely the total has gone up exponentially a result.

$1.2 billion includes the proposed Don Mills-Finch East extension. I agree that such extension is a bad idea and the funds should be directed elsewhere. But that does not invalidate the Finch West portion, where LRT is the right technology.

The southern edge of the F.H.C. is within 300m of Finch proper (2 city blocks walking distance or under 4 mins for able-bodied pedestrians). Also the 36 bus would still exist only in reduced frequencies (due to lowered demand since most commuters from Rexdale and Jane-Finch would opt for F.H.C.). Win/win.

Yes, F.H.C is close to Finch West proper; but access is very inconvenient in many places. In particular, that applies to the Dufferin - Bathurst stretch: the majority of trip generators are on the south side, but there is no convenient way to walk from there to F.H.C.

Electricity is made from burning oil, coal or hydro-power. 1 time of changing the energy-form (from oil to electricity) will cause loss somehow. Then later, the electricity will be changed again to make kinetic energy to propel the LRT's cars which is also subject to some energy loss i.e. 2 times of loss. Meanwhile for the bus which burns oil directly, it will suffer from only 1 time of energy transformation.

The electricity-to-kinetic energy transformation is extremely efficient, and involves very little loss. The burning of fuel at the power generation plant is somewhat more efficient than in the bus, since the scale allows to optimize the process better. The two-stage transformation needed for electric vehicles is, overall, about as efficient as the one-stage one required for buses.

Electricity can be produced from sources other than burning fuel: hydro, atomic, solar, wind. All those sources produce no greenhouse gases; solar and wind have little if any environmental impact at all. In contrast, buses can run on nothing but diesel or gasoline or compressed gas.

And finally, buses depend on oil or gas; if their prices spike again, TTC will be hit financially. Electricity prises will be affected, too, but not as much since it comes from different sources.
 
Article in today's star on crowd control measures at Bloor-Yonge:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/735184#article

I see an advertising opportunity here for SOS: "Think these crowd control measures are just temporary? If Transit City goes through, these will be a permanent fixture. Transit City will do nothing to relieve congestion at Bloor-Yonge, or on the Yonge subway south of Bloor."
 
Instead of advertising.....

.....perhaps a better approach might be to get an articulate member of SOS booked on a TV (or radio) show -- maybe Stephen Ledrew's show on CP24.

I realize this could be out of the realm of possibility, but the exposure from a successful appearance on a program like that would be invaluable.
 
.....perhaps a better approach might be to get an articulate member of SOS booked on a TV (or radio) show -- maybe Stephen Ledrew's show on CP24.

I realize this could be out of the realm of possibility, but the exposure from a successful appearance on a program like that would be invaluable.
No... it'd be absolutely amazing. And considering all the hype that's gone in through Transit City, I'm sure that they'd just be itching for a story against it. CP24 would probably be the best bet, if you ask me.
 
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