saveoursubways (SOS)

[Second_in_pie]

^^ When I said I'm pretty confident it could be found, I was confident that Move Ontario 2020 would actually give money to all the projects it promised funding for.

 

[Rainforest]

^ That gets tricky. Move Ontario 2020 promised funding for 52 transit projects - but, based on the cost estimates at that time. Moreover, the provincial government pledged only 2/3 of the funding (11.8 billion), under assumption that the federal government will come up with the remaining 1/3 (5.9 billion). But the feds never committed to doing so.

Since then, the cost estimates for most of projects went up, but the province did not pledge any extra money to cover those increases. The feds, so far, only contributed their 1/3 to TYSSE and to Sheppard LRT, for the total of about 1 billion.

So, Metrolinx just re-distributed most of the available funds between fewer projects, picking projects that they deem highest priority. The remaining projects are still on the books, but the funding for them is by no means guaranteed. They might be scaled back in scope, or just delayed forever.

 

[gweed123]

I agree with you. So would that mean having 3 phases (committed funding, 15 year plan (uncommitted), and 25 year plan)? If so, we need to do some work to see which projects move to the front of the line.

 

[Rainforest]

So would that mean having 3 phases (committed funding, 15 year plan (uncommitted), and 25 year plan)?

I'd think that people in charge will be more at ease with the plan, if it is classified that way. Then, they can redirect the committed funding and start building something, rather than just halt the existing plan and wait for additional funding.

If so, we need to do some work to see which projects move to the front of the line.

Thoughts on Phase I (using committed funding, which is about 8 billion):

1) Eglinton West subway (Yonge to Pearson, 18 km, 250 million per km assuming partly at-grade and partly elevated west of Black Creek): 4.5 billion.

2) Finch West LRT (same as in Transit City): 0.8 billion.

3) Danforth subway to STC (about 6 km at 300 million per km): 1.8 billion

4) Sheppard East subway to Warden (3.5 km at 300 million per km): 1.05 billion. [Warden is by no means a logical terminus, but I don't think the existing funding will suffice to get further. Just don't build a Great Hall of buses at Warden if it is temporary.]

5) Express bus service from STC to Malvern Centre, and from Warden along Sheppard East (I don't have good estimates, but let's assume 50 million each): 0.1 billion.

Total: 8.25 billion; and each corridor supported by "Transit City I" (Eglinton, Finch, Sheppard, SRT / Malvern Centre) gets something according to this plan, too.

Three notes:

(A) DRL is not in Phase I. Strictly from the ridership needs, it should be there; but "Transit City I" did not fund it, and shifting funds from the above corridors to DRL will be met with resistance. Obviously, if DRL is not in Phase I, it must be very high priority in Phase II.

(B) Funding for TYSSE should not be counted (because it is funded separately), but TYSSE should be shown on the project map as already built, or about to be built. Without TYSSE, it would look like the north-western corner got the short end of the stick (LRT, versus subways in other quarters).

(C) The above "Phase I" plan assumes that construction of Sheppard East LRT does not begin. But in reality, it probably will; in about 6 or 8 months we will know if it has become irreversible. At that point, you would need to amend the plan: either accept Sheppard East LRT to Don Mills, or urgently get about 1 billion in extra funding to build both the subway and the LRT (meeting at Kennedy).

 

[Second_in_pie]

In regards to Phase I pt. 1, pt. 2 and Phase 2, how bout this...

Phase I: Part I (immediate use of current TC money,)
-Sheppard from Don Mills to STC (or maybe Agincourt,)
-Eglinton from Jane to Don Mills
-B-D to STC
-Finch West LRT

Phase I: Part II (pending the additional money promised for TC)
-Eglinton from Jane to Pearson
-DRL from Union/Spadina to Eglinton

If there's anything I missed, please tell me so I can include it.

My logic goes as follows:

-Sheppard is needed to put something in that corridor, and to un-stubify the subway.
-Eglinton is easy to do (I'd assume they could use basically the same plans as the LRT, except with subway specifications.) The central portion is also the one that needs a lot of help, and the sooner it gets that, the better.
-The B-D extension has to be as far along as possible before the SRT has to close down. I doubt they could fully finish it by 2015, when the SRT's officially done, but getting it started ASAP means as little pain if the SRT goes out of commission.
-The Finch West line actually makes sense, and funding's already out. I don't see why we should halt it.
-The DRL will need an actual in-depth look to alignment, station design, and method of construction. This means it'll take longer than what I'd imagine as "part one of phase one," but still finished before Phase 2 starts in 15-25 years.
-Eglinton West could easily be pushed forward with a tiny bit of extra funding, but it can be built independently from the rest of the line due to a totally different construction technique for building it. It's also needed as early as possible, but not as desperately as central Eglinton

Smaller projects like BRTs and streetcar upgrades (crossing fingers,) can be mixed in, because they're much less expensive than subway or LRT.

 

[Fresh Start]

I would advise caution to advocating Finch West LRT when HONE's beginning to warm up to the idea of making F.H.C. available for transit usage. If further negotiations could be hammered out, then there's potential for a true crosstown BRT route from Malvern Town Centre to Highway 27, costing less then the sum of FWLRT, Finch-Yonge to Don Mills connection, SELRT and SRT extension. All that would be needed then is a dedicated BRT corridor into SCC from Malvern (which running adjacent the 401 could provide relatively cheap).

That said with DRL apart of a separate study and funding scheme; full Eglinton subway from Pearson to Don Mills ($5.25 B), Sheppard to Agincourt ($1.5 B) and B-D to SCC ($1.8 B) could be in Phase 1.

 

[Rainforest]

... when HONE's beginning to warm up to the idea of making F.H.C. available for transit usage.

Are they? So far, they only permitted TTC to use 2 km between Dufferin and Steeles, and they probably expect it to be there temporarily, just until the subway is built.

 

[Rainforest]

Also, 5.25 billion for Eglinton subway from Pearson to Don Mills seems quite optimistic, how did you arrive to that number?

Note that eliminating Finch West LRT releases only 0.8 billion , which does not make a huge difference when applied elsewhere. But for North Etobicoke, it is a setback: instead of funded LRT with defined scope, they get a promise of BRT which will be built if new funding is allocated and if HONE allows it.

And, that BRT will be of limited use for North Etobicoke, since HC corridor turns south-west near Weston Rd.

It would be more effective to retain Finch West LRT in Phase I, and treat HC BRT as a future project that tailors to long-range trips.

 

[gweed123]

Also, 5.25 billion for Eglinton subway from Pearson to Don Mills seems quite optimistic, how did you arrive to that number?

Note that eliminating Finch West LRT releases only 0.8 billion , which does not make a huge difference when applied elsewhere. But for North Etobicoke, it is a setback: instead of funded LRT with defined scope, they get a promise of BRT which will be built if new funding is allocated and if HONE allows it.

And, that BRT will be of limited use for North Etobicoke, since HC corridor turns south-west near Weston Rd.

It would be more effective to retain Finch West LRT in Phase I, and treat HC BRT as a future project that tailors to long-range trips.

I agree that the BRT and LRT along Finch are not substitutes for eachother. If done as an express, BRT can be much faster than even subway. I think that's what the Finch Hydro corridor needs.

And I also agree that Finch is one of the few corridors in TC where LRT actually makes sense (it would make sense on Sheppard, if it wasn't for the existing subway).

And as for Eglinton, that is assuming that the Richview section is trenched, not tunnelled (decking it over would marginally increase the cost, but not substantially).

 

[GraphicMatt]

I agree that the BRT and LRT along Finch are not substitutes for eachother. If done as an express, BRT can be much faster than even subway. I think that's what the Finch Hydro corridor needs.

With this kind of argument, the SOS group is going to be hit with the argument that you're designing a system for commuters and not local service.

 

[gweed123]

With this kind of argument, the SOS group is going to be hit with the argument that you're designing a system for commuters and not local service.

I never said the two were mutually exclusive projects...

 

[kEiThZ]

With this kind of argument, the SOS group is going to be hit with the argument that you're designing a system for commuters and not local service.

Commuting is by far the most important need. And much of Metrolinx's efforts are targeted at improving services for commuters.

Beyond that, how much does Transit City really do for local travel? Nobody travelling within their community is going to use a TC line unless they have direct access to it. All TC is doing is increasing capacity and comfort on a few select routes. Beyond that, it does nothing for local travel that a bus today could not do. In fact, one of the worst things it does is reduce stop spacing. That's hardly going to benefit local travel.

 

[Tdot_one]

Commuting is by far the most important need. And much of Metrolinx's efforts are targeted at improving services for commuters.

Beyond that, how much does Transit City really do for local travel? Nobody travelling within their community is going to use a TC line unless they have direct access to it. All TC is doing is increasing capacity and comfort on a few select routes. Beyond that, it does nothing for local travel that a bus today could not do. In fact, one of the worst things it does is reduce stop spacing. That's hardly going to benefit local travel.

That's what I find rather odd as well. The stations are spaced more like a commuter line making it difficult to develop Eglinton ala Queen Ave.

It would make more sense to sink the line if establishing a crosstown trip is required. If not, at least break the line into three segments. Run an occasional express, which I think, may require additional express track.

As for buses, I don't think it could provide similar local service as an LRT. It could potentially, but the capacity of the LRT is much higher. Eglinton is one corridor that deserves high capacity transportation at a local level. It would make more sense to argue that Morningside-Sheppard doesn't.

 

[kEiThZ]

As for buses, I don't think it could provide similar local service as an LRT. It could potentially, but the capacity of the LRT is much higher. Eglinton is one corridor that deserves high capacity transportation at a local level. It would make more sense to argue that Morningside-Sheppard doesn't.

Define local. Is a local trip 5 km down a single corridor? Or is local a trip from one end of Scarborough to another?

If it's the first scenario then LRT will only have a minimal impact since the trip won't be long enough to really have significant time savings. And the longer wait times from reduced frequencies, could well increase total trip times as well. So there's no guarantee of improvements in this scenario.

If it's the second scenario, again, I don't see how much LRT will help since it's only being deployed on a handful of corridors. Nobody is going to out of their way to travel on a LRT. It's not fast enough to overcome the time loss from going out of one way. So again, how would LRT be a huge help when travelling around a borough?

 

[Tdot_one]

Define local. Is a local trip 5 km down a single corridor? Or is local a trip from one end of Scarborough to another?

The former. Kennedy Station to Victoria Park probably has around 70 towers (includes 5-story low rises) along the corridor and a lot more around the neighboring area. That's a 3km stretch with density that cities around the world (especially US) would dream love.

The huge problem is poor local connectivity to commercial areas. Of course core services (health care, grocery store, schools, etc) aren't too far, but considering the density, the area should be a lot better. I've seen a more active street life in lower density urban areas that are trying to add similar density.

LRTs, as seen in Europe, could definitely help especially if parkland or the towers themselves are turned into commercial spaces. High concentration of services with a tram line would turn them into Amsterdam-esque tram corridors.

If it's the first scenario then LRT will only have a minimal impact since the trip won't be long enough to really have significant time savings. And the longer wait times from reduced frequencies, could well increase total trip times as well. So there's no guarantee of improvements in this scenario.

From what I've seen in trams running in around higher density European cities, Hong Kong, and Melbourne, is it is possible to run respectable local service. Of course it's going to replicate a bus, but the capacity will be much higher. The bus at most could carry 50, while an LRT could carry over a 100 passengers.

Steve Munro points that out as well:

Taking King as an example, the AM peak headway gets down to 2′00″. The design capacity is, roughly, 23 CLRVs at 74 plus 7 ALRVs at 108 for a total of 2,464. Providing this with buses would require almost 50 vehicles per hour, a service frequency low enough that it would add considerably to congestion due to platooning. This frequency is possible on some suburban routes only because the streets are wider and there is mixed local and express operation.

If it's the second scenario, again, I don't see how much LRT will help since it's only being deployed on a handful of corridors. Nobody is going to out of their way to travel on a LRT. It's not fast enough to overcome the time loss from going out of one way. So again, how would LRT be a huge help when travelling around a borough?

Crosstown trips seem rather unnecessary for that reason.