saveoursubways (SOS)

[nfitz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought there was limited bus service on Danforth during the day...

No. There's no service until the subway closes, west of Main. East of Main, there is regular service, as the buses that feed southwest Scarborough feed into Main instead of Victoria Park ... but that's only one station length.

That hasn't stopped them adding a whole lot of new bus shelters at major intersections though ... I'm a bit cynical on where the new bus shelters have been installed ... it's clearly more about advertising $ than demand requirements.

 

[Ansem]

No. There's no service until the subway closes, west of Main. East of Main, there is regular service, as the buses that feed southwest Scarborough feed into Main instead of Victoria Park ... but that's only one station length.

That hasn't stopped them adding a whole lot of new bus shelters at major intersections though ... I'm a bit cynical on where the new bus shelters have been installed ... it's clearly more about advertising $ than demand requirements.

my point was that I don't see why the TTC would not choose 800M spacing on Sheppard East with no buses...

I don't think its that big of a deal...

 

[nfitz]

If we could cut half the stops, and speed the service 4 km/hr, that would be a big deal!

 

[gweed123]

Oh good grief, the alignments aren't even the same.

I'm really tired of the hypocritical posts that trash the TTC for a bias in reports, when the prime motive of the poster is their own bias for wanting subways rather than LRT.

But why study only one alignment? And the subway alignment that makes the least amount of sense at that (ie one that doesn't go to STC). Most of the reports I've seen (including some of the ones that made up TC, for example the Eglinton connection to Pearson) study multiple alignments to choose the best one.

What the TTC did was study a subway alignment that makes no sense, put it up against an LRT alignment, and say "well the LRT on this corridor makes a lot more sense".

And even if the TTC were trying to bias against subways ... then surely in the 2002 report when they were trying to get the Sheppard extension built, then the 8,400 estimate of ridership 20 years in the future, is enough to clearly demonstrate that subway isn't warranted!

It may be in the low range of the subway spectrum, I'll admit that, but it's still in the subway spectrum. If the entire Sheppard corridor were being built now, it would be built as grade-separated LRT, no doubt. But we need to face the reality that we screwed up the first part, so don't make the problem even worse by creating 2 different modes of transit on the same corridor because the numbers on the 2nd phase of the subway alone are in the low end of the subway spectrum.

A lot of subway ridership numbers drop the further out you get. It's just how it works. It would be a problem if you had really high ridership levels from the first station in (why do you think the DRL was just put ahead of the Yonge extension? Ridership figures that are too high too quickly on the line are not a good thing for those passengers further down the line). So yes, you would expect the numbers from Yonge to Don Mills to be higher than Don Mills to Victoria Park, and those to be higher than Victoria Park to Kennedy, and those from Kennedy to STC.

 

[nfitz]

It may be in the low range of the subway spectrum, I'll admit that, but it's still in the subway spectrum. If the entire Sheppard corridor were being built now, it would be built as grade-separated LRT, no doubt. But we need to face the reality that we screwed up the first part, so don't make the problem even worse by creating 2 different modes of transit on the same corridor because the numbers on the 2nd phase of the subway alone are in the low end of the subway spectrum.

And if there was an infinite source of money available, I'd agree. But it would cost at least $2.5-billion to extend the Sheppard line to Scarborough Centre. That's about $1.5-billion more than the LRT is going to cost. If you wanted to have a single mode, then it would be cheaper to spend the $0.5-billion to convert the subway to LRT.

That $2.5-billion would be better spent on a DRL. On a Danforth line extension to Scarborough Centre. On a Yonge Line extension. On a Don Mills and Jane RT.

If this is all you have, then no one is going to take you seriously ... not even the new mayor.

 

[kEiThZ]

And if there was an infinite source of money available, I'd agree. But it would cost at least $2.5-billion to extend the Sheppard line to Scarborough Centre. That's about $1.5-billion more than the LRT is going to cost. If you wanted to have a single mode, then it would be cheaper to spend the $0.5-billion to convert the subway to LRT.

That $2.5-billion would be better spent on a DRL. On a Danforth line extension to Scarborough Centre. On a Yonge Line extension. On a Don Mills and Jane RT.

If this is all you have, then no one is going to take you seriously ... not even the new mayor.

And that's where the difference of opinion lies between you and the SOS members. We'd be willing to give up SELRT and the SMLRT to get the Sheppard East subway extension and pay for the incremental cost of converting the SRT to a subway.

As for nobody taking us seriously, we've already discussed this. We're trying. Leave us to our work. If we succeed that's great. If we don't then we'll feel the pride of being citizen activists who did our best to fight city hall (and Steve Munro).

 

[gweed123]

And if there was an infinite source of money available, I'd agree. But it would cost at least $2.5-billion to extend the Sheppard line to Scarborough Centre. That's about $1.5-billion more than the LRT is going to cost. If you wanted to have a single mode, then it would be cheaper to spend the $0.5-billion to convert the subway to LRT.

That $2.5-billion would be better spent on a DRL. On a Danforth line extension to Scarborough Centre. On a Yonge Line extension. On a Don Mills and Jane RT.

If this is all you have, then no one is going to take you seriously ... not even the new mayor.

We've already shown on here that it CAN be done. We've created a plan that is equal in cost (in Phase I) to TC. Sure, the cost of just the Sheppard project may be more as a subway, but when the plan is considered as a whole, it is cost-neutral.

So with that being said, it comes down to personal preference: LRT lines through every ward in the city, or subways to select key areas to improve the core transit network of the city. I know which one I want 15 years from now, when I'm standing on the platform at Bloor-Yonge (or not having to stand on the platform at Don Mills or Kennedy).

 

[Second_in_pie]

It may be in the low range of the subway spectrum, I'll admit that, but it's still in the subway spectrum. If the entire Sheppard corridor were being built now, it would be built as grade-separated LRT, no doubt. But we need to face the reality that we screwed up the first part, so don't make the problem even worse by creating 2 different modes of transit on the same corridor because the numbers on the 2nd phase of the subway alone are in the low end of the subway spectrum.

A lot of subway ridership numbers drop the further out you get. It's just how it works. It would be a problem if you had really high ridership levels from the first station in (why do you think the DRL was just put ahead of the Yonge extension? Ridership figures that are too high too quickly on the line are not a good thing for those passengers further down the line). So yes, you would expect the numbers from Yonge to Don Mills to be higher than Don Mills to Victoria Park, and those to be higher than Victoria Park to Kennedy, and those from Kennedy to STC.

Why would it be built grade-separated LRT? If you're going to build it fully grade separated, why don't go for subway, which happens to be less expensive and has the possibility of higher capacity if it's needed.

And I don't think we screwed up the first part. The Downsview-STC corridor is actually a pretty huge in terms of people moving along it. It's got the framework for tonnes of people going across it in all directions at all times. Sheppard West is actually a pretty important subway extension if you ask me, and it'll only be more important as the YUS gets longer. It'll allow people on the Spadina line to quickly access NYCC, the Yonge line and eastern North York and Scarborough. It'll also serve the Downsview community and Bathurst-Sheppard. Just connecting the Spadina Line with Yonge and NYCC is good enough justification for me to get it built.

I have two points about ridership. First, 10 k pphpd isn't the magical subway number. And whatever LRT's max capacity is, is not the magical number for LRT either. If you're getting a LRT that you know will be getting 15k pphpd, I'm thinking that building it as a subway isn't a terrible idea. And if you get a subway that's gonna have 9k pphpd, that might warrant subway, say if it's a short corridor, or if there's a lot of development opportunity.
Second, I doubt that Sheppard's 10 year predictions are still under 10k pphpd (and I mean if a real study was done.) The corridor's got way more potential than that.

And as for cost... Don Mills-STC would definitely not be $2.5 billion. I'd say that the upper limit is $2 billion, with $2.5 billion being the scenario when they discover there's a volcano under Agincourt. If they built the subway intelligently (aka. no cathedral stations or underground bus bays,) I'd expect something closer to $1.5-1.7 billion. Sheppard West would be less than a billion, again, negating any underground lava vents we need to doge around

 

[nfitz]

We've already shown on here that it CAN be done. We've created a plan that is equal in cost (in Phase I) to TC.

I missed the costing post. Can you point back to it? It's not jumping out in a search.

 

[gweed123]

I missed the costing post. Can you point back to it? It's not jumping out in a search.

Here's the table from the report. It's divided into 3 sections (comparative to TC, separate from TC, and then phase 2). Phase 1 is equal to TC.

 

[Dan416]

Why would it be built grade-separated LRT? If you're going to build it fully grade separated, why don't go for subway, which happens to be less expensive and has the possibility of higher capacity if it's needed.

And I don't think we screwed up the first part. The Downsview-STC corridor is actually a pretty huge in terms of people moving along it. It's got the framework for tonnes of people going across it in all directions at all times. Sheppard West is actually a pretty important subway extension if you ask me, and it'll only be more important as the YUS gets longer. It'll allow people on the Spadina line to quickly access NYCC, the Yonge line and eastern North York and Scarborough. It'll also serve the Downsview community and Bathurst-Sheppard. Just connecting the Spadina Line with Yonge and NYCC is good enough justification for me to get it built.

I have two points about ridership. First, 10 k pphpd isn't the magical subway number. And whatever LRT's max capacity is, is not the magical number for LRT either. If you're getting a LRT that you know will be getting 15k pphpd, I'm thinking that building it as a subway isn't a terrible idea. And if you get a subway that's gonna have 9k pphpd, that might warrant subway, say if it's a short corridor, or if there's a lot of development opportunity.
Second, I doubt that Sheppard's 10 year predictions are still under 10k pphpd (and I mean if a real study was done.) The corridor's got way more potential than that.

And as for cost... Don Mills-STC would definitely not be $2.5 billion. I'd say that the upper limit is $2 billion, with $2.5 billion being the scenario when they discover there's a volcano under Agincourt. If they built the subway intelligently (aka. no cathedral stations or underground bus bays,) I'd expect something closer to $1.5-1.7 billion. Sheppard West would be less than a billion, again, negating any underground lava vents we need to doge around

I've always said Bloor-Danforth needs a northern alternative. Sheppard could be that if they would do the logical thing and extend it in both directions, as Bloor-Danforth has been in the past. I'm not saying it needs to be the same lenght as B-D, but if it went from Downsview to STC, it'd actually make it more useful to people who might otherwise take B-D, and it might even generate new trips too. We might actually have a subway line, and not a stubway.

 

[LowerBay]

Hey, you guys should call in, or try to get on "Ride the Rocket", which airs on CP24, to promote your cause.

 

[gweed123]

I've always said Bloor-Danforth needs a northern alternative. Sheppard could be that if they would do the logical thing and extend it in both directions, as Bloor-Danforth has been in the past. I'm not saying it needs to be the same lenght as B-D, but if it went from Downsview to STC, it'd actually make it more useful to people who might otherwise take B-D, and it might even generate new trips too. We might actually have a subway line, and not a stubway.

While I do agree with that, I think the more logical alternative to Bloor-Danforth is Eglinton. It's right through the centre of the city, and it is one of the only roads in the entire city that goes across the whole city of Toronto. But either one would work in terms of providing a viable alternative to B-D.

 

[nfitz]

Here's the table from the report. It's divided into 3 sections (comparative to TC, separate from TC, and then phase 2). Phase 1 is equal to TC.

Ah interesting ... is there a report then?

Hmm, Phase 1 is $14.6-billion; that's much higher than the funding for Phase 1 of Transit City.

Don Mills to Pearson on the Eglinton subway is almost $7-billion. That's significantly more than the RT line is costing; but if the RT line is giving you subway-like speeds and twice the frequency from Don Mills to Pearson (well Laird to Pearson ... but with only one traffic light from Laird to Don Mills, it should be similiar), then why spend so much more money? What does that extra money get you?

It looks like you've completely scrapped LRT where I thought you'd all agreed it was appropriate? I see nothing on Don Mills north of Eglinton for example.

 

[gweed123]

Ah interesting ... is there a report then?

Hmm, Phase 1 is $14.6-billion; that's much higher than the funding for Phase 1 of Transit City.

Don Mills to Pearson on the Eglinton subway is almost $7-billion. That's significantly more than the RT line is costing; but if the RT line is giving you subway-like speeds and twice the frequency from Don Mills to Pearson (well Laird to Pearson ... but with only one traffic light from Laird to Don Mills, it should be similiar), then why spend so much more money? What does that extra money get you?

It looks like you've completely scrapped LRT where I thought you'd all agreed it was appropriate? I see nothing on Don Mills north of Eglinton for example.

If I remember correctly though, most of, if not all of, TC is in the 15 year portion of the Metrolinx plan. The most recent estimate for TC has been $15 billion, which is what we're basing our plan off of. And yes, there is a report that is currently under development.

And yes, it is more expensive (granted we have used very conservative cost estimates), but having that entire portion grade-separated will significantly increase reliability. There is still a debate whether or not it should be subway, or grade-separated LRT.

And is an additional BRT network which we are proposing (which wasn't included on the subway map), but covers most of the corridors of TC. Don Mills north of Eglinton has a BRT along it (or rather a BRT Light, which is comprised of curbside cut-outs, cue jump lanes, and signal priority). As does Highway 27, Finch (from 27 to Malvern), Jane, Don Mills, Kingston, and Ellesmere. We have yet to get exact costing on this, but the infrastructure investment of doing cue jump lanes, curbside cut-outs, and signal priority is negligable compared to an LRT ROW.